Trolling Ethics Debate Thread

WilhelmIIofPrussia

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Obviously, Catie is pure evil for trying to have a relationship with Chris based on mutual respect. Catie is responsible for everything bad that's happened in Chris's life, and none of it is his own fault. Chris is just an autistic little angel, flawless and completely selfless.

Not.
I didn't say Chris was those things, but this whole fresh cycle of new girlfriend to break-up is unnecessary suffering for Chris.
Catherine tried to have a relationship with Chris based on mutual respect? This person actually wanted to have a relationship with Chris? The intention wasn't to destroy him from the beginning?
 
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garbageraider

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I didn't say Chris was those things, but this whole fresh cycle of new girlfriend to break-up is unnecessary suffering for Chris.
Chris was a demanding, selfish little prick to Catie. If Chris is depressed, it's his own fault for forcing the relationship to end. If Chris had never met Catie, he'd be whining about depression anyways because he'd be alone. In fact, Chris is depressed because of how shitty his life is, and he's blaming the way he feels on Catie, which is fucked up.
 

Marvin

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So, I see the harm in ambiguity is that it denies Chris any kind of closure. I don't think leaving things ambiguous protects him in any way, in that he needs to feel burned by being fooled by a troll, because that's what's happened, and then maybe there is a chance that he can learn from it. I know those chances are very, very slim, but it's better than him perpetuating a fantasy.
Chris doesn't care about closure. His memories of past trolls is extremely fuzzy and he'll change his position on what happened on a whim. Ambiguity can help him because he might feel better about getting dumped than getting tricked. However, that's just a possibility. I have no clue which he'd prefer. (And I do genuinely believe that the difference between telling him and not telling him is minimal. Seriously, Chris doesn't give a shit.)
One view that hasn't really been discussed is the social Darwinist perspective, or might makes right: Chris deserves to be trolled not because he's a bad person (:alog:) but because he is inferiorly naive which justifies the usage of him by trolls for lulz.

Thoughts?
That's mostly what I focus on. Not that Chris deserves to get trolled, but the big issue to me is how practical it is to troll Chris. Back in 2013, debates about trolling ethics didn't matter to me, because me and my friends stopped trolling Chris. And I didn't believe anyone online but us was capable of trolling Chris. The ethics of trolling Chris was a moot point.

But I was wrong. Apparently there is still another person capable of trolling Chris online. And Chris himself also made some errors in 2014 that opened him up to more trolling.

I think that he'll learn from these mistakes and fix those errors. This year was an expensive, depressing lesson for Chris.
 

Le Bateleur

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Chris was a demanding, selfish little prick to Catie. If Chris is depressed, it's his own fault for forcing the relationship to end. If Chris had never met Catie, he'd be whining about depression anyways because he'd be alone. In fact, Chris is depressed because of how shitty his life is, and he's blaming the way he feels on Catie, which is fucked up.
Starting a relationship with a lonely, depressed person which you know is a ruse on your part is fucked up.

I don't necessarily mind people who play around with fire, but I sure hate hearing them complain about how they got burned.
 

garbageraider

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Starting a relationship with a lonely, depressed person which you know is a ruse on your part is fucked up.
That depends upon the intent going into the relationship, and the conduct of the person conducting the ruse during the relationship.

When everything is dropped, look it over, and then draw your conclusion.
 

Tragi-Chan

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So, I see the harm in ambiguity is that it denies Chris any kind of closure. I don't think leaving things ambiguous protects him in any way, in that he needs to feel burned by being fooled by a troll, because that's what's happened, and then maybe there is a chance that he can learn from it. I know those chances are very, very slim, but it's better than him perpetuating a fantasy.
The thing is, what constitutes "closure" for Chris? Megan made it completely clear that she wasn't interested in him, and he kept at it. Years later, he was still hung up on her, having decided that she was some sort of troll ringleader. He's tried coming on to other trolls even after they've been revealed as such. He seems to flip between thinking certain relationships were real or not depending on what suits him at that time. Don't get me wrong, if I thought closure would benefit him, then I would absolutely agree, but I don't think it will - he's just too mentally odd.
 

Thetan

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The intention wasn't to destroy him from the beginning?

That's not actually true. The original idea behind "Catherine" was neutral. She was meant as a vehicle by means to obtain information (content) about Chris and his current living situation.

Catherine wasn't all that much different than Renee except that, because he met her on OKCupid and they had a 97% match on those silly personality questions, Chris thought they were soul mates and destined to be together.

Catherine never tried to set herself up as a girlfriend. She met Chris on OKCupid, but she told him that she wanted to use that as a starting point and see where things went from there. Also, the open relationship was Chris's idea, not Catherine's.

Catherine never referred to Chris as her "boyfriend","sweetheart", or told him that she loved him. This part of the relationship is another figment of Chris's imagination. Catherine was very careful to not go there. She was trying to present herself to Chris as another gal pal, but he wasn't having any of it. He wanted a fully devoted and committed girlfriend or nothing at all.

One thing you might find interesting: Catherine had a chance to get her hands on one of the holiest of holy troll artifacts. Chris was so desperate to get her to commit to a relationship that he offered to give her the Amnyfest Ring; she, of course, refused (that would have been way over the line and she couldn't accept it in good conscience).
 

WilhelmIIofPrussia

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Catherine never tried to set herself up as a girlfriend. She met Chris on OKCupid, but she told him that she wanted to use that as a starting point and see where things went from there. Also, the open relationship was Chris's idea, not Catherine's.

Catherine never referred to Chris as her "boyfriend","sweetheart", or told him that she loved him.

That changes some things I suppose. But I still have some reservations. It seems quite coincidental that Catherine was found by Christian given that Catherine was meant to obtain content. Was Catherine planted on OKCupid to answer those questions with 97% similarity so that Christian would notice and therefore contact her?
 
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4Macie

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That pretty much changes everything I suppose. But I still have some reservations. It seems quite coincidental that Catherine was found by Christian given that Catherine was meant to obtain content. Was Catherine planted on OKCupid to answer those questions with 97% similarity so that Christian would notice and therefore contact her?
I would say yes. Remember how Chris had like two friends going through his OkCupid account to help him find true matches? My guess is that one of them helped Catherine out and at the same time, kept all the weens out.
 

Thetan

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WHAT?! Chris threw back Catie's totally-not-pretend love?!?! :'( WHAT AN UNGRATEFUL FUCK, ACTING LIKE THAT TOWARDS A FAKE TROLL GIRLFRIEND. HE SHOULD BE ASHAMED!
skyraider_zpsd84eca56.png

But.... Chris is operating under the assumption that Catherine is real, which means that this is how he would act in an IRL situation. Breakups happen all of the time, most people just learn how to roll with them.

That pretty much changes everything I suppose. But I still have some reservations. It seems quite coincidental that Catherine was found by Christian given that Catherine was meant to obtain content. Was Catherine planted on OKCupid to answer those questions with 97% similarity so that Christian would notice and therefore contact her?

I don't have all of the information behind this. The best thing to do is to wait for the rest of the info to drop, then draw your own conclusions.
 

Le Bateleur

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But.... Chris is operating under the assumption that Catherine is real, which means that this is how he would act in an IRL situation. Breakups happen all of the time, most people just learn how to roll with them.
However, what are the odds that a true girlfriend would act like "Catie" did?

Unless she's the daughter of Meryl Streep and Donnie Brasco, the fact that she was lying to Chris and working to avoid getting too close would naturally make her behave differently to a real girlfriend.

You can't engineer elaborate webs of lies and then claim the results you obtain are representative of any kind of reality.

There's too much of an observer effect for that.

The Heisensperg Uncertainty Principle, if you will.
 

axcel

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I don't have all of the information behind this. The best thing to do is to wait for the rest of the info to drop, then draw your own conclusions.
On that same note, I'm sure the best thing Skyraider can do is wait until he's ready to do a full data dump and not upload snippets of convos like this. Providing us data without the full context of how to view it seems to be bringing up more questions than answers.
 

Taily Puff

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when that woman is a troll she has no right to get pissy when "fatty" (XDDDD) acts inappropriately towards her

Hypothetically, if you build a fake store, and fill the register with fake money, and then when I'm at the counter you catch me on camera leaning over when no one is looking to grab a stack of twenties? You're still allowed to call me a dirty fucking thief.

Chris doesn't realize he's in this social experiment, and yes it's totally shitty that it's being done to him in the first place. But he still believes it's real, and his pathetic inappropriate behavior is still pathetic and inappropriate.
 
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Thetan

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However, what are the odds that a true girlfriend would act like "Catie" did?

Unless she's the daughter of Meryl Streep and Donnie Brasco, the fact that she was lying to Chris and working to avoid getting too close would naturally make her behave differently to a real girlfriend.

You can't engineer elaborate webs of lies and then claim the results you obtain are representative of any kind of reality.

There's too much of an observer effect for that.

The Heisensperg Uncertainty Principle, if you will.

The way Chris acted with Catie is very similar to the way he acted with "The Wallflower", who wasn't an admitted troll. He tried to guilt trip her as well, and continued to insist that they were in a "relationship" despite her telling him that they weren't and that she wasn't interested.

As with Catie, Chris became more nasty and aggressive towards The Wallflower when she continued to refuse to give him what he demanded.

He pulled this shit with Catie as well. They had barely started speaking when Chris was planning for Catie to sleep over at the rental. He was actually trying to talk her into moving in with him, and even offered her the use of the BMW.

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, but Chris's behavior is unacceptable and inappropriate, and Catie not being "real" doesn't change or excuse that.
 

Renraku

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One thing you might find interesting: Catherine had a chance to get her hands on one of the holiest of holy troll artifacts. Chris was so desperate to get her to commit to a relationship that he offered to give her the Amnyfest Ring; she, of course, refused (that would have been way over the line and she couldn't accept it in good conscience).

you fools
 

Zekesman

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One thing you might find interesting: Catherine had a chance to get her hands on one of the holiest of holy troll artifacts. Chris was so desperate to get her to commit to a relationship that he offered to give her the Amnyfest Ring; she, of course, refused (that would have been way over the line and she couldn't accept it in good conscience).
As a wedding ring I assume...

Actually props for you guys on not taking that relic, it really shows you have a line of decency - even if the whole set up is questionable. I get the impression that this wasn't really that much of a conspiracy of elite troll but just a harmless ween-bait that escalated into a situation where you guys had an golden opportunity. But those are questions for the ethics thread.

Chris seems to behaving like a common narcissistic and abusive boyfriend. First bait the girl and then pretend being all lovey dovey while your eyes on the price: sex/money/stuff and slowly turn more dominant and abusive, using guilt tactics and fake heartful statements and promises that everything will be better. Chris however seems to lack any charm or attractive traits and just skips right through the last part to keep troll girlfriend with him. A failure of a player I'd say. If wallflower actually did fall for him it would've turn bad for her allright...
 

HipstrsGonnaHip

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Catie is pure evil for trying to have a relationship with Chris based on mutual respect.

I'm calling bullshit on this. There is no point where you can come in as a fake girlfriend for Chris and pretend that anything you do is rooted with even a bit of respect.

Do what you do, it doesn't matter, but don't try to pretend that it's something it's not.
 

Le Bateleur

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The way Chris acted with Catie is very similar to the way he acted with "The Wallflower", who wasn't an admitted troll. He tried to guilt trip her as well, and continued to insist that they were in a "relationship" despite her telling him that they weren't and that she wasn't interested.

As with Catie, Chris became more nasty and aggressive towards The Wallflower when she continued to refuse to give him what he demanded.

He pulled this shit with Catie as well. They had barely started speaking when Chris was planning for Catie to sleep over at the rental. He was actually trying to talk her into moving in with him, and even offered her the use of the BMW.

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, but Chris's behavior is unacceptable and inappropriate, and Catie not being "real" doesn't change or excuse that.

I can appreciate the argument you're making about Chris's behaviour being inappropriate, and it certainly seems to have found a lot of traction here. I've thought this over a lot, and I don't say what I'm about to say lightly, but I think that I simply can't get past what you did to obtain this content.

I'm not going to harangue you or "call you out", but suffice it to say I think that - all current evidence considered - your trolling of Chris was far more unacceptable, inappropriate and damaging than anything Chris has done in response. The same applies to Skyraider and "Catie" - particularly to "Catie", since you and Skyraider have both had the courage to come here and discuss this with us, and that is admirable.

The only reason that I set this out explicitly is because it's central to my position on these leaks. You and Skyraider are both, essentially, pointing to Chris's actions and condemning his moral flaws. I simply cannot find it in myself to listen to this condemnation when it comes from people who have done what you and Skyraider and "Catie" have done. If I were in your situation myself I would stick to providing content and answering factual questions about it, and leave making the case against Chris to others who didn't participate in any deception.

Yes, I know there's more documentation and evidence to come, but based on what I've seen so far it'll take something extraordinary for me to change the picture that's already been built up.

In closing: I wish you no ill-will, nor any fallout or blowback from this incident. Almost everyone has been very cordial about this so far, and long may that continue.
 
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