Trump/FAA Ground the 737 MAX 8 - Twitter Aeronautics Experts Weigh In

SuperDeeDuper

it's a show stoppin' Zany kind of popcorn!
kiwifarms.net
so, everyone is blaming boeing and drumpf for these two crashes that happened on squints Ethiopian Air and Lion Air (an Indonesian airliner)

there have been two fatal crashes in the operating lifespan of the 737 MAX 8. nobody knows exactly what the cause was yet, aside from vague statements by Ethiopian civil aircraft authorities about faulty instrument readings. regardless, everyone is jumping to blame boeing because third-worlders crashed their plane. meanwhile, american and european operators have flown this same plane many thousands of times without incident. is it boeing's fault? you decide.


President Trump announced Wednesday the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is grounding all Boeing 737 Max planes "effective immediately," following the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed 157 people, including eight Americans. All planes in the air at the time of the agency's order were allowed to reach their destinations but prohibited from taking off again, the FAA said in a subsequent statement.

The cause of the Ethiopian Airlines crash has not yet been determined, but the incident marked the second time in five months a Boeing 737 Max 8 plane crashed within minutes of takeoff. A Max 8 jet operated by Lion Airlines crashed in Indonesia in October 2018, killing 189 people.
The FAA said the order grounding the plane "will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft's flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders." In addition to grounding flights in the U.S., the order also prohibits all Max planes from entering U.S. airspace.
"The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today," the agency said. "This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision."
Mr. Trump explained the decision was reached after new information came to light, and federal aviation officials and Boeing leadership agreed with the move. The U.S. decision to ground the planes comes as other nations have already grounded the fleet, and as the U.S. was under mounting pressure to follow suit. Canada banned Max aircraft from its airspace Wednesday, also citing new but unspecified information.

"We're going to be issuing an emergency order to ground all flights of the 737 Max 8 and the 737 Max 9, and planes associated with that line," Mr. Trump told reporters in the Roosevelt Room. "I've spoken to Elaine Chao, secretary of transportation, Dan Elwell, acting administrator of the FAA, and to Dennis Muellenberg, CEO of Boeing ... They are all in agreement with the action. Any plane currently in the air will go to its destination and thereafter be grounded until further notice. So planes that are in the air will be grounded if they're the 737 Max, will be grounded upon landing at the destination."
The president said the U.S. didn't have to ground the planes, but it was important to do so for "psychological" reasons, among other reasons.
"It's a terrible, terrible thing," the president said of the recent crash. "Boeing is an incredible company they are working very very hard right now, and hopefully they'll very quickly come up with the answer, but until they do the planes are grounded."

Some critics said the U.S. was too slow to act. When Mr. Trump spoke with Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg on Tuesday, the executive assured the president he believes the planes are safe, CBS News' Kris Van Cleave reported Tuesday. Boeing reiterated that belief in a statement Wednesday following the president's announcement.
"Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX," Boeing said. "However, after consultation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined — out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety — to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft."
Now, airlines — and passengers — are dealing with the fallout of the decision.
American Airlines issued a statement immediately after the president's announcement confirming the Boeing 737 Max fleet will be grounded, and all flights will be rebooked as soon as possible.

"Earlier today the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) informed us that based on new information, they are grounding the United States Boeing 737 MAX fleet out of an abundance of caution," American Airlines said in its statement. "American Airlines has 24 aircraft affected by this directive. We appreciate the FAA's partnership, and will continue to work closely with them, the Department of Transportation, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, as well as our aircraft and engine manufacturers. Our teams will be working to rebook customers as quickly as possible, and we apologize for any inconvenience."

even though nobody knows what exactly happened, and no one will know until investigations conclude later this year, lots of twitter experts are weighing in with their hot airplane takes:
apparently a bunch of third world countries with awful records on flight safety are the example for america, the country that literally invented air travel, to follow:
693668


this googolplexbrain thinks flying a plane is comparable to driving a car:
693669


'you had so much time to get this right,' says man who knows even less than the next-to-nothing that authorities know about the two crashes
693670


very intelligent gentleman believes the government shutdown prevented the plane from being 'software updated' like his ipad.
693674
 

moocow

Moo.
kiwifarms.net
even though nobody knows what exactly happened, and no one will know until investigations conclude later this year,
Is this bait? They've already recovered the flight recorders and gathered lots of evidence (from this and the Lion Air crash).

Both crashes involved brand-new planes (they were just months old -- they hadn't even reached enough duty cycles or calendar age to need many of their maintenance checks yet) and they crashed in very similar circumstances right after takeoff after their pilots indicated by radio that they were having control problems with the craft. I don't care if you've got Nigerians maintaining these things; they don't just fall out of the sky in the same way a few months after being built for no reason.

There's legitimate suspicion that the craft's updated Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) is either faulty or handles failures of the craft's angle-of-attack sensors by forcing it into a dive if it thinks it's stalling (when it really isn't). Boeing and the FAA have been warning airlines worldwide about the issue for months.

The US also isn't alone in grounding the fleet. Lots of other countries have done the same.

This isn't just a "knee-jerk" reaction -- there's a good reason to ground these planes until a fix can be found that'll keep the damned things from face-planting themselves in the trees.
 

SuperDeeDuper

it's a show stoppin' Zany kind of popcorn!
kiwifarms.net
There's legitimate suspicion that the craft's updated Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) is either faulty or handles failures of the craft's angle-of-attack sensors by forcing it into a dive if it thinks it's stalling (when it really isn't). Boeing and the FAA have been warning airlines worldwide about the issue for months.
and i'm sure it's just a coincidence that the other thousands of flights done with this plane haven't had this issue. if boeing has been 'warning for months,' then presumably there is some kind of proper procedure to follow, and presumably most pilots are following it, given that most of the planes do not fall out of the sky. if the problem is the plane, why aren't there more crashes?

most air disasters throughout history have been due to operator error and until someone proves otherwise, that seems like the most likely cause here as well.
 

Wargarbl

kiwifarms.net
I read about the first crash. It did sound like they had an issue with new features and new locations of controls & indicators, and a lack of training on them. Someone else referenced the MCAS, which can be disabled if it isn't responding correctly, but a lack of training on how to handle that situation could have dire consequences (as we've seen).

Grounding the planes for an operational/training deficiency is still a good reason to ground them. Of course, the fuckwits on Twitter are mystified why an ultra-complex system of machinery that takes years to decades of training to master doesn't work like their latest iPhone where you push one button and it deciphers your trisomy.
 

moocow

Moo.
kiwifarms.net
and i'm sure it's just a coincidence that the other thousands of flights done with this plane haven't had this issue.
Those flights didn't have a faulty angle-of-attack sensor. These two did.

if boeing has been 'warning for months,' then presumably there is some kind of proper procedure to follow
The proper procedure, as it turns out, is to disable a safety system pilots are trained to trust, but only when the plane tries to crash itself. Not exactly "standard procedure."

and presumably most pilots are following it, given that most of the planes do not fall out of the sky. if the problem is the plane, why aren't there more crashes?
Again, because those flights did not involve a component failure that these two crashes have in common.

most air disasters throughout history have been due to operator error and until someone proves otherwise, that seems like the most likely cause here as well.
Boeing defense force in da house, Jesus Christ...
 

Wargarbl

kiwifarms.net
but that's the responsibility of the company flying the plane. american companies train their flight crews. we have the strictest rules in the world, that's why we have so few accidents compared to the rest of the world. i don't see how that's our fault
As in, Boeing didn't do a good job putting out material for airlines to train their pilots on these things.

RE: didn't crash in 'murica - it may be that US airlines didn't happen to have sensor issues, it may be that US pilots are more experienced and capable. Either way, planes should NOT be falling out of the sky due to a sensor failure and if it's happened twice in a year, then at the very least crews need to be hyper-aware of the issue and ready to correct it.
 

SuperDeeDuper

it's a show stoppin' Zany kind of popcorn!
kiwifarms.net
those flights did not involve a component failure that these two crashes have in common.
i don't see anything showing that they had the same component failure. i do see this:
693734

something tells me that first-world airliners would not have made these kinds of mistakes. what is more likely, that the design itself is bad, or that the people who worked on this particular plane didn't know what they were doing?

i don't see anything about the AOA sensor being the specific problem with the other crash, it's all speculation at this point.

As in, Boeing didn't do a good job putting out material for airlines to train their pilots on these things.
indonesia's own authorities are saying the maintenance people fucked up lol:

693762
 

Abortions4All

Can't complain (but sometimes I still do)
kiwifarms.net
I'll paste my sperging from the other thread earlier today.

One of the biggest differences between these MAX planes and the older versions of the 737 is that the new plane has some super-advanced new systems to help avoid a stall or a crash. Other than these systems, the planes were so similar to the old models that many pilots never flew a single simulator flight in the MAX aircraft before flying one for real.

But there are problems with those automatic systems. When the plane's angle-of-attack sensors start to detect a stall, the new automated system works to lower the nose of the plane to help the pilots get it under control.

When the AoA sensors start to have difficulty, though, the result is what happened on Lion Air a few months ago (report should be coming out in August): the pilots have to fly a bucking bronco, which is continuously trying to put its nose on the ground during the part of the flight where you should be gaining both speed and altitude. No matter how many times you try to correct the problem, the automated system keeps kicking in and you keep hearing warnings about a stall while the fucking plane is crashing itself. Eventually the pilots can't keep coming out of the nose-down condition against everything the plane is trying to do, and they crash.

The day before the Lion Air crash, the exact same thing started happening to the plane that crashed. But the pilots that particular day were really smart. Their move? Turn the automated systems off, fly at a lower altitude manually, and tell ground what was going on so the plane could get fixed. Instead of fixing it, they sent it up again the next day, and the pilots didn't think to turn the automated systems off because they're so used to thinking of those systems as help, not crash-inducing.

Given the flight path of the more recent crash in Ethiopia, it seems like the same problem may be in play here: one busted sensor causes conditions that lead the automatic systems to go rogue and kill everyone onboard while the pilots frantically try to regain control. The whole situation may end up being a real point in favor of having pilots instead of computers flying us around. There are a bunch of people who are alive today because some Lion Air pilot figured out that it'd be better not to have the anti-stall system than die in a huge fireball, which Boeing's best computers apparently couldn't work out.
 

Azovka

I coulda been a contender
kiwifarms.net
but that's the responsibility of the company flying the plane. american companies train their flight crews. we have the strictest rules in the world, that's why we have so few accidents compared to the rest of the world. i don't see how that's our fault

noice
Quoted from NYT (article link below) :

"At least two pilots, flying United States routes on the Max 8 filed incident reports with the federal government that raised safety concerns and criticized a lack of training on the new plane."

Pilots on U.S. routes had reported concerns about the Max 8
At least two pilots who flew Boeing 737 Max 8 planes on routes in the United States had raised concerns in November about the noses of their planes suddenly dipping after engaging autopilot, according to a federal government database of incident reports.

The problems the pilots experienced appeared similar to those preceding the October crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia, in which 189 people were killed. The cause of that crash remains under investigation, but it is believed that inaccurate readings fed into the Max 8’s computerized system may have made the plane enter a sudden, automatic descent.

In both of the American cases, the pilots safely resumed their climbs after turning off autopilot. One of the pilots said the descent began two to three seconds after turning on the automated system.

“I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can’t think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively,” the pilot wrote.
A pilot on a separate flight reported in November a similar descent and hearing the same warnings in the cockpit, and said neither of the pilots on board was able to find an inappropriate setup.

“With the concerns with the MAX 8 nose down stuff, we both thought it appropriate to bring it to your attention,” the pilot said.
The complaints were listed in a public database maintained by NASA and filled with thousands of reports, which pilots file when they encounter errors or issues. The database does not include identifying information on the flights, including airline, the pilot’s name or the location.
Another pilot wrote of having been given insufficient training to fly the Max 8, a new, more fuel-efficient version of Boeing’s best-selling 737.
“I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the F.A.A., and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models,” the pilot wrote.
The pilot continued: “I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know? The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”
Boeing has said the planes are safe to fly, but has pledged to upgrade their software and improve pilot training. News of the incident reports was first reported by The Dallas Morning News and confirmed by The New York Times.
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/world/africa/boeing-ethiopian-airlines-plane-crash.html

Tldr: In the cases of the American pilots to whom it happened, they had the presence of mind to turn the systems off. Obviously that didn't happen in both of these crashes. But who can blame those pilots? When you're in an emergency situation with your plane nose-diving hundreds of kms in the air, not everyone would turn off the systems that are supposed to save the plane (and your life).

You could also blame the increasingly fast and botched training pilots are put through across the world to pop more and more of them as fast as possible.
In the Soviet Union, pilots had to train 4 years on simulations AND real planes before being certified. Now, a pilot doesn't even need to fly a real plane once before getting his license, or whatever it is. Simulations are enough.
(Not praising communism btw, it's just the only example I know personally and for sure).
 

The Littlest Shitlord

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
You could also blame the increasingly fast and botched training pilots are put through across the world to pop more and more of them as fast as possible.
In the Soviet Union, pilots had to train 4 years on simulations AND real planes before being certified. Now, a pilot doesn't even need to fly a real plane once before getting his license, or whatever it is. Simulations are enough.
(Not praising communism btw, it's just the only example I know personally and for sure).
The Soviet Union had tons of manpower but was saddled with a horribly unproductive economic system for ideological reasons. Considering how the Evil Empire habitually spent the blood of its people like water, I don't exactly think that they had safety in mind here; rather they simply had many fewer planes than pilots. 21st century first world countries with their high tech but low birthrates have exactly the opposite situation.
 

Azovka

I coulda been a contender
kiwifarms.net
The Soviet Union had tons of manpower but was saddled with a horribly unproductive economic system for ideological reasons. Considering how the Evil Empire habitually spent the blood of its people like water, I don't exactly think that they had safety in mind here; rather they simply had many fewer planes than pilots. 21st century first world countries with their high tech but low birthrates have exactly the opposite situation.
So you'd be comfortable flying with a pilot that never actually flew a real plane prior to getting his license? And be his first real flight? All I'm saying is the training's way more botched and sped up than it used to be, and at the same time, the technology got more complex. So by all means, there should be more training, not less.
(And yes, I know it will never happen, gotta pump up little, barely competent, and lost pilots to fuel the capitalist machine and the increased demand for flights.
Just saying that people don't value safety anymore than the Soviet Union did).

Also tbh, I don't know the numbers though I could do some digging, but I really doubt it was a plane issue for the Soviet Union.
 
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Dracula's Spirit Animal

One time, I accidentally ate a bunch of nails
kiwifarms.net
so, everyone is blaming boeing and drumpf for these two crashes that happened on squints Ethiopian Air and Lion Air (an Indonesian airliner)

there have been two fatal crashes in the operating lifespan of the 737 MAX 8. nobody knows exactly what the cause was yet, aside from vague statements by Ethiopian civil aircraft authorities about faulty instrument readings. regardless, everyone is jumping to blame boeing because third-worlders crashed their plane. meanwhile, american and european operators have flown this same plane many thousands of times without incident. is it boeing's fault? you decide.


President Trump announced Wednesday the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is grounding all Boeing 737 Max planes "effective immediately," following the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed 157 people, including eight Americans. All planes in the air at the time of the agency's order were allowed to reach their destinations but prohibited from taking off again, the FAA said in a subsequent statement.

The cause of the Ethiopian Airlines crash has not yet been determined, but the incident marked the second time in five months a Boeing 737 Max 8 plane crashed within minutes of takeoff. A Max 8 jet operated by Lion Airlines crashed in Indonesia in October 2018, killing 189 people.
The FAA said the order grounding the plane "will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft's flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders." In addition to grounding flights in the U.S., the order also prohibits all Max planes from entering U.S. airspace.
"The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today," the agency said. "This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision."
Mr. Trump explained the decision was reached after new information came to light, and federal aviation officials and Boeing leadership agreed with the move. The U.S. decision to ground the planes comes as other nations have already grounded the fleet, and as the U.S. was under mounting pressure to follow suit. Canada banned Max aircraft from its airspace Wednesday, also citing new but unspecified information.

"We're going to be issuing an emergency order to ground all flights of the 737 Max 8 and the 737 Max 9, and planes associated with that line," Mr. Trump told reporters in the Roosevelt Room. "I've spoken to Elaine Chao, secretary of transportation, Dan Elwell, acting administrator of the FAA, and to Dennis Muellenberg, CEO of Boeing ... They are all in agreement with the action. Any plane currently in the air will go to its destination and thereafter be grounded until further notice. So planes that are in the air will be grounded if they're the 737 Max, will be grounded upon landing at the destination."
The president said the U.S. didn't have to ground the planes, but it was important to do so for "psychological" reasons, among other reasons.
"It's a terrible, terrible thing," the president said of the recent crash. "Boeing is an incredible company they are working very very hard right now, and hopefully they'll very quickly come up with the answer, but until they do the planes are grounded."

Some critics said the U.S. was too slow to act. When Mr. Trump spoke with Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg on Tuesday, the executive assured the president he believes the planes are safe, CBS News' Kris Van Cleave reported Tuesday. Boeing reiterated that belief in a statement Wednesday following the president's announcement.
"Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX," Boeing said. "However, after consultation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined — out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety — to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft."
Now, airlines — and passengers — are dealing with the fallout of the decision.
American Airlines issued a statement immediately after the president's announcement confirming the Boeing 737 Max fleet will be grounded, and all flights will be rebooked as soon as possible.

"Earlier today the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) informed us that based on new information, they are grounding the United States Boeing 737 MAX fleet out of an abundance of caution," American Airlines said in its statement. "American Airlines has 24 aircraft affected by this directive. We appreciate the FAA's partnership, and will continue to work closely with them, the Department of Transportation, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, as well as our aircraft and engine manufacturers. Our teams will be working to rebook customers as quickly as possible, and we apologize for any inconvenience."

even though nobody knows what exactly happened, and no one will know until investigations conclude later this year, lots of twitter experts are weighing in with their hot airplane takes:
apparently a bunch of third world countries with awful records on flight safety are the example for america, the country that literally invented air travel, to follow:
View attachment 693668

this googolplexbrain thinks flying a plane is comparable to driving a car:
View attachment 693669

'you had so much time to get this right,' says man who knows even less than the next-to-nothing that authorities know about the two crashes
View attachment 693670

very intelligent gentleman believes the government shutdown prevented the plane from being 'software updated' like his ipad.
View attachment 693674
With the fainting couch self-righteousness of these fucks, before anything is even remotely determined, I wish they'd been around for Union Carbide in Bhopal. They would have absolutely lost their shit.
 

Mesh Gear Fox

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Now, a pilot doesn't even need to fly a real plane once before getting his license, or whatever it is. Simulations are enough.
I don't know of any flight schools in the US where you don't fly the real deal. That's preposterous. One of the reasons getting a pilot's license is so expesive is that you have to have hundreds of hours of flight time (for a commercial license), and you pay for every minute that the school's aircraft is in the air.
 
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Start a war betamex

You can not silence this dogs bark
kiwifarms.net
Quoted from NYT (article link below) :

"At least two pilots, flying United States routes on the Max 8 filed incident reports with the federal government that raised safety concerns and criticized a lack of training on the new plane."



Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/world/africa/boeing-ethiopian-airlines-plane-crash.html

... , a pilot doesn't even need to fly a real plane once before getting his license, or whatever it is. Simulations are enough.
(Not praising communism btw, it's just the only example I know personally and for sure).
You ABSOLUTELY have to fly real airplanes (a lot!) before getting your licenses. And what's more, once you get into the larger aircraft, you need a type rating for that exact model, that means training, flight time, and then a check ride.

Yeah some training IS done in simulators but the vast bulk of pilot training hours are done in the air.
 

SuperDeeDuper

it's a show stoppin' Zany kind of popcorn!
kiwifarms.net
The whole situation may end up being a real point in favor of having pilots instead of computers flying us around.
#YangGang am I right

So you'd be comfortable flying with a pilot that never actually flew a real plan
pilots never fly solo, they start as copilots and need a certain amount of time as copilots before they can become 'full' pilots. so that would never happen in reality

those pilots who turned the system off may have had experience with older 737s, who knows? they were obviously more competent than the ones who crashed
 
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