Twin Galaxies - Upright Arcade Cabinet Autism

[Super Collie]

As I'm sure you've probably guessed, Todd Rogers has become a bit of a meme in the speedrunning community as of late. Over at speedrun.com someone registered a throwaway account named "ToddRogers64" and submitted a "run" of Super Mario 64. Needless to say it was rejected because it's a joke video, but it's one of the funniest things to come out of this shitshow.

"Todd Rogers" was also so kind as to leave a comment on the speedrun.com forums regarding his thoughts on the rejection of his speedrun.

 

[YW 525]

Although I have the utmost respect for Walter Day creating the genre that is keeping official scores for games and spearheading the way for MLG in general, the company he has kept has been in the spotlight ALOT recently for faking scores and being downright autistic.

All this proved is how far TG was willing to go to hang onto their reputation as pioneers within the industry.

Twin Galaxies' reputation has been questionable for almost 30 years now, long before King of Kong brought them mainstream attention.

Walter Day and his collection of stooges don't exactly build faith and it seems like almost every year or two there was another controversy about this score being cheated or that machine being rigged or a judge getting caught doing something with a contender. It's a shame that TG was resurrected under new management a couple of years ago. They should have just let it go. Even without Walter Day at the helm you still have all of these weird hangers-on that are ultimately aging gamers with little to nothing to be proud of other than their fraudulent high scores.

It always reeks of PR and political maneuvering with Twin Galaxies and that's why they're unworthy. Speedrunning is always going to have people trying to fake scores though, it's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately Twin Galaxies (like most record-keeping rackets) is operated by some of the worst examples of human beings in the gaming community.

Think back to the most hectic internet forum you've ever been a part of; Twin Galaxies is a hundred times worse and has been doing it non-stop since the 80s.

Twin Galaxies is so shitty that it makes me long for the heyday of SpeedDemosArchive.

 

[nosemouth]

As I'm sure you've probably guessed, Todd Rogers has become a bit of a meme in the speedrunning community as of late. Over at speedrun.com someone registered a throwaway account named "ToddRogers64" and submitted a "run" of Super Mario 64. Needless to say it was rejected because it's a joke video, but it's one of the funniest things to come out of this shitshow.

This is one of the funniest fucking videos I've ever seen on youtube.

 

[Super Collie]

Crossposting @chadmuska's post in the Billy Mitchell thread in the news forum:

Apollo Legend put up a 15 minute video dissecting the situation

From the viewpoint of someone who's been involved on and off with video gaming and speedrunning for decades, this evidence is pretty damning. Apollo Legend does a pretty good job of explaining the how's and why's of the evidence he shows so I feel like I don't really need to explain it in further detail. But if any of you would like some clarification or expansion upon some of the main points raised in this video feel free to ask and I'll do my best.

 

[Slamerella]

Since that video that taught how to catch cheaters in speedruns, score runs, etc., I wonder how many more famous and WR runs are illegitimate. It's fairly easy to fake them, but I can safely confirm we can rule out some of them or at least, in some cases, we can't truly tell for some.

Incoming autism and powerlevelling

Spoiler

--We can rule out games that came out recently such as games on Wii U, Switch, 3DS, PS3, Xbox 360 XBone, and PS4. Wii U Emulation is very good but it still has its fair share of problems. 3DS Emulation is still in its infancy. The same can be said about other emulators for other Gen 7 consoles, but definitely not Gen 8.
--We can rule out most Wii games if we take into consideration of Motion Controls, as well as some Wii U games. Dolphin can't really emulate motion controls well unless you specifically have an adapter or other hardware/software to help with that. Even then, there are TAS methods for utilizing motion controls. Pointing and shaking wont be much of a problem since a regular mouse can do that just fine.
--Games that are specifically on a type of console such as the iQue cannot be cheated or hacked, meaning Cosmo/Narcissa's WR of OoT on the iQue can't be illegitimate (and even with the new rules put in place for some games where there are either new categories on SDA for console types or banning certain console types for a combination of many plus sides and it being on hardware people can't easily obtain, such as iQue, and the iQue being VASTLY different to actual N64 hardware, i.e., much more powerful, his run is pretty much obsolete and moot due to newly found tech for the anypercent run.)
--Speedruns that are just way too fucking easy and usually just aren't able to be beaten such as Pokemon Yellow Zero% which just uses a save glitch can't be hackable, spliceable, etc. It's not only dumb, but these runs usually aren't on scoreboards for SDA, and some specialty runs aren't usually officially recognized by SDA.
--Many RPG runs due to their nature of randomness, having something of a 6% chance to do a critical hit in a speed run sounds like it'd be impossible. Even a 1%. But that doesn't mean that they're cheating. They could potentially just have really good RNG. An item drop that is rare? Could be RNG. An encounter that's incredibly rare, much more rare than any item in the game, and it's been very consistent on how many times they ran into it? Who can confirm that it wasn't hacked? There have been times people ran into 5 Pikachu in a row in Viridian Forest (which, considering stats and probability, that's at least 3 shiny Pokemon considering the encounter rate for Pikachu in that forest.)
--Speedruns that have been outright confirmed to be played on a console can also be pinned as such.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

I think the really pathetic thing here is that if, when these guys were kids playing arcade games, a bunch of creepy adults had muscled in and started making high scores srs bsns they'd have been the first people to declare them a bunch of losers. Don't get me wrong, I love vidya and I think it's important that there are people out there with the passion and nostalgia to still play and enjoy these games because it means they'll be preserved. That being said, they're actually alienating an entire new generation of players by acting like asshats/having greasy sex with them.

 

[Super Collie]

That being said, they're actually alienating an entire new generation of players by acting like asshats/having greasy sex with them.

When I used to hang out and post on Atari Age back at the turn of the millennium there were more than a couple of occasions where people felt disenfranchised by the seemingly impossible records of people like Todd Rogers. Over the past few weeks I've kinda wondered about all those people back then and thought about how the record books for classic gaming would look today if all these people weren't discouraged by a bunch of fake records that they thought were actually real.

I think what we're eventually going to see is that nobody's going to give a shit about any of the "records" kept by Twin Galaxies anymore. Some of the more important records that have irrefutable proof will probably still be accepted by the gaming community, but the majority of these "verified in person by a referee" records will be discarded because the trustworthiness of the source has been irreparably tarnished. Someone else will step in to fill the void and hold themselves to a higher standard of integrity and I'd venture a guess that by 2020 Twin Galaxies will be gone for good.

 

[Slap47]

I think what we're eventually going to see is that nobody's going to give a shit about any of the "records" kept by Twin Galaxies anymore. Some of the more important records that have irrefutable proof will probably still be accepted by the gaming community, but the majority of these "verified in person by a referee" records will be discarded because the trustworthiness of the source has been irreparably tarnished. Someone else will step in to fill the void and hold themselves to a higher standard of integrity and I'd venture a guess that by 2020 Twin Galaxies will be gone for good.

Is Twin Galaxies screwed? Even Resetera is allowing Apollo's videos and taking them seriously despite them previously getting removed for breaking the cardinal sin of having a transphobic creator.

 

[Super Collie]

Is Twin Galaxies screwed? Even Resetera is allowing Apollo's videos and taking them seriously despite them previously getting removed for breaking the cardinal sin of having a transphobic creator.

I think they are in very hot water right now and I am not so sure how aware of this the powers that be are. The keystone of any record-keeping archive is trustworthiness. If you were to seek information from this person or institution, would you be able to trust that they have done their due diligence in evaluating the proof/evidence in order to provide you with correct data? -AND- If this organization were to make a mistake and provide incorrect data, would you be able to trust that they would immediately work to correct the issue and retract their previous statements?

Todd Rogers' and Billy Mitchell's cases are major back-to-back blows to the credibility and trustworthiness of Twin Galaxies. Todd straight up lied about countless records and continued to maintain his story even when he was questioned. The community had to go as far as to prove via programming and mathematics that his records were impossible. Todd's records were vouched for by a "referee" whom he was friends with. Todd himself became a Twin Galaxies referee and used his position of power to add even more false records to the books. Billy lied about the hardware he was using to obtain records with. It was also demonstrated that Billy's video proof of his records did not follow Twin Galaxies own requirements for verification yet they were accepted anyways. Billy is a major source of funding for Twin Galaxies, so of course they are going to look the other way when he presents them with doctored proof. Despite being confronted with a smattering of doubt and evidence for years Twin Galaxies made no effort to even investigate these potentially fake records, they just stuck to their guns and insisted they were correct.

To this day both Todd and Billy insist they did not do anything wrong. Billy deflects questions and covers his ass by claiming crowds of people saw him achieve his records (which is moot if he's using illegitimate hardware which a layman wouldn't be aware of). Todd still claims that he's able to "engage the clutch" and start in second gear in Dragster even though this was proven via the game's very own program code to be totally impossible.

Todd and Billy were integral parts to the history of Twin Galaxies, and now neither of them are people to be trusted. Both of them were also Twin Galaxies staff and served as the public faces of the organization of top of that. They are just two people out of many in Twin Galaxies' history though, so if we can't trust these two people then who's to say we can trust the others? The ref who "verified" Todd's initial bogus scores is literally a convicted child molester. He doesn't sound too trustworthy to me, I wouldn't believe a fucking thing he had to say about anything. Twin Galaxies made no effort to clean house or maintain any shred of integrity when it came to record keeping, so to finally answer your question yes I think Twin Galaxies is almost certainly screwed.

(The fact that ResetERA is allowing Apollo's content is pretty amusing. It shows that I guess when you come right down to it, you simply cannot argue with the evidence of mathematical/programming proof. At some point you have to concede that someone is correct even if they disobey the groupthink.)

 

[carltondanks]

I think they are in very hot water right now and I am not so sure how aware of this the powers that be are. The keystone of any record-keeping archive is trustworthiness. If you were to seek information from this person or institution, would you be able to trust that they have done their due diligence in evaluating the proof/evidence in order to provide you with correct data? -AND- If this organization were to make a mistake and provide incorrect data, would you be able to trust that they would immediately work to correct the issue and retract their previous statements?

Todd Rogers' and Billy Mitchell's cases are major back-to-back blows to the credibility and trustworthiness of Twin Galaxies. Todd straight up lied about countless records and continued to maintain his story even when he was questioned. The community had to go as far as to prove via programming and mathematics that his records were impossible. Todd's records were vouched for by a "referee" whom he was friends with. Todd himself became a Twin Galaxies referee and used his position of power to add even more false records to the books. Billy lied about the hardware he was using to obtain records with. It was also demonstrated that Billy's video proof of his records did not follow Twin Galaxies own requirements for verification yet they were accepted anyways. Billy is a major source of funding for Twin Galaxies, so of course they are going to look the other way when he presents them with doctored proof. Despite being confronted with a smattering of doubt and evidence for years Twin Galaxies made no effort to even investigate these potentially fake records, they just stuck to their guns and insisted they were correct.

To this day both Todd and Billy insist they did not do anything wrong. Billy deflects questions and covers his ass by claiming crowds of people saw him achieve his records (which is moot if he's using illegitimate hardware which a layman wouldn't be aware of). Todd still claims that he's able to "engage the clutch" and start in second gear in Dragster even though this was proven via the game's very own program code to be totally impossible.

Todd and Billy were integral parts to the history of Twin Galaxies, and now neither of them are people to be trusted. Both of them were also Twin Galaxies staff and served as the public faces of the organization of top of that. They are just two people out of many in Twin Galaxies' history though, so if we can't trust these two people then who's to say we can trust the others? The ref who "verified" Todd's initial bogus scores is literally a convicted child molester. He doesn't sound too trustworthy to me, I wouldn't believe a fucking thing he had to say about anything. Twin Galaxies made no effort to clean house or maintain any shred of integrity when it came to record keeping, so to finally answer your question yes I think Twin Galaxies is almost certainly screwed.

(The fact that ResetERA is allowing Apollo's content is pretty amusing. It shows that I guess when you come right down to it, you simply cannot argue with the evidence of mathematical/programming proof. At some point you have to concede that someone is correct even if they disobey the groupthink.)

yeah, this is the end of twin galaxies. we should just let the other site keep records on speedruns

 

[Super Collie]

yeah, this is the end of twin galaxies. we should just let the other site keep records on speedruns

Speedrun.com (and to an extension Speed Demos Archive) seems to have the right idea with delegating verification of new runs and submissions to volunteer moderators who are familiar with the game(s) while the website's administration can step in if need be to overrule a decision or invalidate runs proven to be cheats. It creates a community of trust by letting these usually closely knit communities police themselves as part of a larger project.

Someone will eventually fill the void that Twin Galaxies will leave behind. Scorekeeping for games that cannot be speedran is still a very important aspect of gaming culture. Whether Speedrun.com steps up to the plate and branches out (sort of like how they incorporated the Zelda Speedruns site after Narcissa Wright defaced it) or a new group is formed from arcade hobbyists or something, this is not the end of arcade world records. This is just the end of a scummy and corrupt organization that tried to gatekeep.

 

[carltondanks]

Speedrun.com (and to an extension Speed Demos Archive) seems to have the right idea with delegating verification of new runs and submissions to volunteer moderators who are familiar with the game(s) while the website's administration can step in if need be to overrule a decision or invalidate runs proven to be cheats. It creates a community of trust by letting these usually closely knit communities police themselves as part of a larger project.

Someone will eventually fill the void that Twin Galaxies will leave behind. Scorekeeping for games that cannot be speedran is still a very important aspect of gaming culture. Whether Speedrun.com steps up to the plate and branches out (sort of like how they incorporated the Zelda Speedruns site after Narcissa Wright defaced it) or a new group is formed from arcade hobbyists or something, this is not the end of arcade world records. This is just the end of a scummy and corrupt organization that tried to gatekeep.

i'd imagine speedrun.com will just do it

 

[Spellskite]

Speedrun.com (and to an extension Speed Demos Archive) seems to have the right idea with delegating verification of new runs and submissions to volunteer moderators who are familiar with the game(s) while the website's administration can step in if need be to overrule a decision or invalidate runs proven to be cheats. It creates a community of trust by letting these usually closely knit communities police themselves as part of a larger project.

Someone will eventually fill the void that Twin Galaxies will leave behind. Scorekeeping for games that cannot be speedran is still a very important aspect of gaming culture. Whether Speedrun.com steps up to the plate and branches out (sort of like how they incorporated the Zelda Speedruns site after Narcissa Wright defaced it) or a new group is formed from arcade hobbyists or something, this is not the end of arcade world records. This is just the end of a scummy and corrupt organization that tried to gatekeep.

I think for many at Twin Galaxies, it was never so much about record keeping as it was about making sure they were part of the history of video games. There's way too much egotism and circle-jerking among the old guard and too much hostility towards the people who tried to demand verification for me to believe they give a damn about the community they claim to speak for. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

I think for many at Twin Galaxies, it was never so much about record keeping as it was about making sure they were part of the history of video games. There's way too much egotism and circle-jerking among the old guard and too much hostility towards the people who tried to demand verification for me to believe they give a damn about the community they claim to speak for. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

It's first world syndrome. Humans are wired to take certain things seriously but once you remove those things, the need to find food, the need to find shelter, the need to keep onself and ones family safe from fuckin' bears and shit, the brain seeks to replace it with something. In some people it manifests as petty criminality or something more sinister, others obsess over harmless hobbies. Others, like Twin Galaxies Spergbase turn something meaningless into super duper serious business guyz! When your life has very little purpose or meaning the brain will create a purpose or meaning as a driving force toward continued individual survival.

 

[Slamerella]

Speedruns and SDA usually require video evidence, and recently they've banned the usage of non direct capture devices or internal capturing. Essentially, anything that is a camera or not something that can get a good quality direct feed like DVD or capture cards or a livestream through the console. They of course require something called "Splits" for those who don't know anything about this, that are essentially "Point A's time to Point B's time." An example would be something like Pokemon where you split at big events, usually gyms, the Elite 4, and even beating important trainer fights that have to be fought such as your rival or the evil teams. Whenever there is proof of someone cheating and they admit it (or the evidence is just piled up) they're very quick to ban and purge. I'd say they're not only better but are the future--or rather, they've been the future. I never heard of TG until the Todd Rogers thing.

 

[Dysnomia]

From what I remember its vintage/art porn and not just tapes or DVDs. So its actually probably still worth a decent amount. It's pin-up art (more adult rated than it normally is).

(NSFW warning, you see some tee tee and vegen):

The piece in that video he commissions is by Hajime Sorayama (at least that's what the name sounds like):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajime_Sorayama

There's also this link where his previous works have sold at auction (and their prices):
https://www.invaluable.com/artist/sorayama-hajime-ob9f66ruso/sold-at-auction-prices/

So it may not be a hobby that everyone can care about and it may be autistic, but it isn't exactly just collecting lego and amiibos. And in his defence, he at least pays for it all with an honest job.

Guy must fap constantly. But I agree it's better than the kiddie crap Chris spends his tard bux on. At least this guy isn't collecting a government tugboat then blowing it all on fap fuel.

I imagine he's just too awkward to get a girlfriend. He probably has bubble universes of spaghetti residing in his pockets that burst forth uncontrollably when a woman is near.

These aren't even really speedruns. TG is about high score, which almost nobody gives a shit about anymore. All this proved is how far TG was willing to go to hang onto their reputation as pioneers within the industry.

I'll take all the autism of GDQ over people so pathetic that they'll lie about high scores in video games for an ego trip.

Such a small amount of people would be interested in high scores from ancient arcade games anyway. And that number is going to continue to shrink as time goes on. Let them have their autism. Some of them are literally lying to become the biggest guppy in a tiny pond at this point. It's so sad. High scores haven't been a main goal in vidya in decades. They were a big deal in the 70s and early 80s because the games weren't complex enough to really offer much else. Most of those games didn't have an end goal beyond "how far can you get on one quarter?". So the high score was a big deal. It proved you were good enough at the game to have your initials on the screen. A big deal to some if you were into arcades back then. Some guys spent all their free time there.

It was a big deal to those guys and I get why. But so many of them seem to be living in the past like the early arcade era never went anywhere. I guess when you've built your whole life around the past like that you have to keep it going. Even if you lie about scores to make yourself look like a 1980 big shot in 2018.

 

[SJ 485]

Apollo Legend was sharing some screencaps of (I'm assuming) a private conversation he had a while ago on youtube with someone who claims to know Todd Rogers personally

I can't verify all of this but the story seems plausible especially since Todd himself has talked about feeding and playing with spiders before

 

[Super Collie]

For those curious, the "frying" mentioned in the comments in the post above refers to a practice of intentionally disrupting the manner in which the Atari 2600 console reads data from the cartridge. The most common result is glitching up the screen or play field, but with certain games you can get helpful glitches such as having 2 shots on the screen at the same time in Space Invaders. Frying is usually achieved by doing things like holding down the reset or game select switches while powering the console on, or by rapidly turning the console on and off resulting in a bad data read from the game cart. It's as stupid as it sounds, and yes you can permanently damage your Atari and your games by doing it.

And in case you were wondering, yes this would be considered "cheating" and would not be allowed in regards to world records.

 

[Manah]

TBF there are still games that count high score like Shmups, some roguelikes, or DOOM.

 

[Mimic]

With the advent of online leaderboards the need for records as such will eventually go obsolete.

And they'll have fewer fake scores than Twin Galaxies.