Virtual Reality -

[bearycool]

We are at the dawn of the virtual reality era. Now this isn't just because of Oculus Rift and other such consumer models that are about to come out within the coming months, but other things as well that I have noticed with technology with the brain such as MRI mapping and neural networks. Along with this, and technology that isn't given out to the public just yet is what makes me believe we should have a thread like this. It is therefore important that we have a dialogue discussing the many important things that must be addressed as VR increases in size and scope. There are a wide range of subjects that I think everyone can enjoy in discussing here.

A brief list is as followed:

• Ethics of the mind and psychology in VR (especially in fully immersive VR that integrates brain functions)
• Coding of VR, and Coding/decoding the brain. (@ActualKiwi I know you will find this interesting)
• Improvements to the hardware, and theoretical methods.
• VR importance in other fields of science such as chemical modeling, etc.
• Theoretical simulations

This is a very brief list to get the gist of things, so go wild. But for right now let's begin with the following:

What do you perceive the future of VR will be assuming that us humans don't each other and continue along the same route that technology is advancing at the moment?

 

[Splendid]

There's gonna be a shitton of virtual fucking.

 

[bearycool]

There's gonna be a shitpost of virtual Fucking.

I mean, when VR advances enough, that's going to be a thing. You can talk about the psychological impact that will have with humanity when you can LITERALLY FUCK ANYTHING in a virtual realm.

 

[Mecha-Lenin]

I'm sorry most of this post may seem a bit... thinking to far ahead... to be practical. I am really just brainstorming.

I am of the opinion that (providing human civilization survives past the 22nd century, that is still up in the air) human consciousness, and other artificial intelligence, will progress eventually to having the option to exist in fully virtual environments. Whether this take centuries or millennia after humans save themselves, I cannot say. I think it is likely that the lifeforms and intelligences of the future will be split into virtual and concrete worlds, with many beings existing and living perfectly satisfactory lives imbedded mostly or entirely within the concrete world, while still others whom live entirely or mostly in the virtual world. The nature of life and consciousness at this far-off stage of evolution may make it difficult to say with certainty whether there is a fundamental difference, though.

Anyway, that said, I suspect that most humans, and probably AI, would not voluntarily choose to exist entirely virtual lives until the technology and infatructures were large enough, stable enough, and long-lasting enough to feel confidant "living" in them.

I do not believe humans will have the capacity to make such stable infrastructure for a while. Our technology and productive capacities will need much development.

P.S. Not directly related to what I just wrote, but I figured I would say it now: I want to argue that "Matrix" like scenarios are unlikely or impossible. To argue this I would take largely from Daniel Dennet's book "Consciousness Explained" (a good read) which as an intro section where Dennet argues the same. It would be impossible to fully fool someone in a virtual world, as the capacities to make a fully complete virtual illusion for our brain are beyond practicality.

 

[Sanae Kochiya]

Can I shitpost for a sec?

If SAO becomes a thing, I will be the first in fucking line to buy that shit.

Shitpost over.

VR'll be an interesting thing. I'm morbidly curious as to how some of the Conservative crowd will react if and when we have a controversial game or something in VR. It's one thing to claim that D&D or Rapelay or Hatred is influencing the minds of people, since you can at least make the argument that people can reliably make the separation between reality and fantasy. However, the line gets really blurry with VR and as much as I didn't give a shit about rapelay, I would admit I would be very unnerved by the thought of playing "Rape Simulator 2020" or "Columbine: The Game" in VR. imo, there's a square difference between just doing that shit with a comtroller and doing it irl, and VR straddles that line way too much for me to be comfortable with it.

On a more optimistic note, should VR get really advanced and mainstreamed, it could be a great way for practicing surgeons, firefighters, police, and even the military to practice their given profession without that lingering issue known as, y'know, death.

Bonus shitpost.

If there is a VR Mech Fighting Simulator I will literally go into debt to play that shit.

Shitpost over.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Meh, we were told we were at the dawn of an era of virtual reality back in 1992 when Lawnmower Man came out. I'll believe it when it actually happens.

 

[Sweet and Savoury]

If/when VR comes into it own, as in a perfect same as life experience, I'd honestly expect a very large percentage of our population to die off practically over-night.

Just think of all the people who would love to hide from reality; hook them up to a life support and let them dream away their lives.

Hell if enough folks succumb it could be the end of us. After all who wouldn't want to have every fantasy fulfilled...that's awfully tempting.

I guess that wanders into philosophic territory, if a lived lived in VR of the same value as one lived in reality?

 

[Mecha-Lenin]

Anyone interested should look the "The Experience Machine". It's a well known philosophical thought experiment, which I think is related.

I don't necessarily agree with its final conclusion myself... but I still believe that anyone interested in this topic should definitely read up on this, at the very least.

 

[bearycool]

I'm sorry most of this post may seem a bit... thinking to far ahead... to be practical. I am really just brainstorming.

I am of the opinion that (providing human civilization survives past the 22nd century, that is still up in the air) human consciousness, and other artificial intelligence, will progress eventually to having the option to exist in fully virtual environments. Whether this take centuries or millennia after humans save themselves, I cannot say. I think it is likely that the lifeforms and intelligences of the future will be split into virtual and concrete worlds, with many beings existing and living perfectly satisfactory lives imbedded mostly or entirely within the concrete world, while still others whom live entirely or mostly in the virtual world. The nature of life and consciousness at this far-off stage of evolution may make it difficult to say with certainty whether there is a fundamental difference, though.

Anyway, that said, I suspect that most humans, and probably AI, would not voluntarily choose to exist entirely virtual lives until the technology and infatructures were large enough, stable enough, and long-lasting enough to feel confidant "living" in them.

I do not believe humans will have the capacity to make such stable infrastructure for a while. Our technology and productive capacities will need much development.

P.S. Not directly related to what I just wrote, but I figured I would say it now: I want to argue that "Matrix" like scenarios are unlikely or impossible. To argue this I would take largely from Daniel Dennet's book "Consciousness Explained" (a good read) which as an intro section where Dennet argues the same. It would be impossible to fully fool someone in a virtual world, as the capacities to make a fully complete virtual illusion for our brain are beyond practicality.

The MAtrix is also very unlikely in that a true AI is not going to just be logical, but it will have "empathy". AI at higher levels will just be emulating healthy human brain functions at a higher level. Entities like that can logically figure out that using all of humanity as a battery is not only terrible for energy resource, but also understand the psychological/emotional implications that can fuck around.

All of this said, this is a lot of theorycraft on singularity and what I personally call "point infinity". Point infinity is the area in which you get up in intelligent powers so much higher than us that everything we know just breaks down and we cannot even fathom it just yet. It would be like an ant understanding human consciousness-- or even an ancient Egyptian man understanding the psychology of a modern man today! stuff is way beyond our league for now. We just know that, in theory, it can exist. It's the same argument that one uses in understanding something like, say, an infinite God. There are also other philosophical arguments that we can place; but for now, I'm going to just stick with VR.

Meh, we were told we were at the dawn of an era of virtual reality back in 1992 when Lawnmower Man came out. I'll believe it when it actually happens.

Well, in a technical sense we were. VR has existed, just in its primitive states, and not really found in commercial use-- much like computers back in say the 1960's. I would addendum that we're close to a commercial use of a primitive form of VR-- that which produces visuals, sounds, and full range kinetic movement. @yawning sneasel has posited ideas that conjecture against this, which I find interesting. Namely that this may create a form of "sensory overload" for the masses who are used to sitting around just looking at a screen.

We will soon see if that is the case or not. I mean, humans have adapt from farming and being in the physical world, to now using the internet and computers. Given time, I think humans will adapt in some way or another.

Anyone interested should look the "The Experience Machine". It's a well known philosophical thought experiment, which I think is related.

I don't necessarily agree with its final conclusion myself... but I still believe that anyone interested in this topic should definitely read up on this, at the very least.

Yeah, the conclusion on that is not the best. Namely because the man says "whatever you desire". When someone uses "Everything" or "whatever" in this context, I will assume this "experience machine" will output ANYTHING that is desired-- including the "want" for certain pleasures. The theory needs to be expanded more.

If/when VR comes into it own, as in a perfect same as life experience, I'd honestly expect a very large percentage of our population to die off practically over-night.

Just think of all the people who would love to hide from reality; hook them up to a life support and let them dream away their lives.

Hell if enough folks succumb it could be the end of us. After all who wouldn't want to have every fantasy fulfilled...that's awfully tempting.

I guess that wanders into philosophic territory, if a lived lived in VR of the same value as one lived in reality?

@MasterDisaster has come to this same conclusion of the population just shutting itself in VR. I would suggest looking at the "Matrioshka Brain", which is a computer that uses the power of the sun and has such high computational power that it can program the universe and the "happiest" experience for any one entity. People have conjectured that this solves the "Fermi paradox" for aliens, as maybe advanced races have indeed just shut themselves into a simulation forever and ever.

The Matrioshka Brain can be much smaller than the sun, of course, but have the same outcome, just on smaller scales. If its computation power is high enough, and VR experience, much like the "Experience machine" can do whatever in a virtual reality, then all bets are off and everything is possible. This gets into speculation and "singularity" theories, as these types of system basically get into the realm of "algorithms that produce improved algorithms at incredible speeds"-- we jut put it into the context of a VR computer. Again, philosophical conceptions of singularity are interesting, but we don't have empirical proof just yet besides the things we already have right now with our knowledge.

---

And to end all of this, here is the following:

Humanity is, in the end, at an impasse. We will either continue growing and rise, or fall. Both these "rising" and "Falling" concepts are shrouded in mystery. One implies "evolving to greater heights" and the other implies "Death". Both are concepts that for ages have been debated, and in this big post I have gotten into brief concepts of the "rising" of humanity, and the "Falling" of humanity. This is why VR is interesting: it considers a lot of these scientific and philosophical groundworks. This is why it's important to discuss it and not put it by the wayside. The more you think about it, the easier it gets to imagine things that cannot be imagine just yet.

 

[Von Clausewitz]

We are at the dawn of the virtual reality era. Now this isn't just because of Oculus Rift and other such consumer models that are about to come out within the coming months, but other things as well that I have noticed with technology with the brain such as MRI mapping and neural networks. Along with this, and technology that isn't given out to the public just yet is what makes me believe we should have a thread like this. It is therefore important that we have a dialogue discussing the many important things that must be addressed as VR increases in size and scope. There are a wide range of subjects that I think everyone can enjoy in discussing here.

A brief list is as followed:

• Ethics of the mind and psychology in VR (especially in fully immersive VR that integrates brain functions)
• Coding of VR, and Coding/decoding the brain. (@ActualKiwi I know you will find this interesting)
• Improvements to the hardware, and theoretical methods.
• VR importance in other fields of science such as chemical modeling, etc.
• Theoretical simulations

This is a very brief list to get the gist of things, so go wild. But for right now let's begin with the following:

What do you perceive the future of VR will be assuming that us humans don't each other and continue along the same route that technology is advancing at the moment?

People are talking about VR and AI and brain mapping and whatnot since Necromancer was published and how this might change mankind. Only a few people realize that in last few years we gained a racial memory, accessible all around the clock as well as a form of telepathy.

...or how would you call the ability to look shit up on Wikipedia on you smartphone whenever and wherever you like and then message you friend halfway around the world what information you just found online?

 

[Mecha-Lenin]

If your goal is to harness VR for human benefit, as opposed to human downfall, then you would probably be better off putting the destiny of the technology in hands other than the entertainment industry and/or the free market. In those conditions VR will only be developed for two purposes:
1) Making the best 'experiences'
2) Making the most profit by doing #1 better than your competitors.

Hopefully, you can see how this dynamic can quickly escalate into the "VR is more fun than life" scenario first brought to this thread by Sweet and Savoury.

...

But again I think it is worth pointing out that I agree with one aspect of "The Experience Machine"... that even if VR is an objectively good experience, people will hesitate because it is "not real". Now the author ultimately wanted to refute hedonism. I don't think he succeeds there, but I to think he is correct that people won't willingly abandon the world for VR.

Of course I am open to be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Mecha-Lenin]

People are talking about VR and AI and brain mapping and whatnot since Necromancer was published and how this might change mankind. Only a few people realize that in last few years we gained a racial memory, accessible all around the clock as well as a form of telepathy.

...or how would you call the ability to look shit up on Wikipedia on you smartphone whenever and wherever you like and then message you friend halfway around the world what information you just found online?

This seems more like a kind of global consciousness (though it is still fragmented and not perfect to be sure). This consciousness is still focused on "the real world" for the most part.

 

[bearycool]

People are talking about VR and AI and brain mapping and whatnot since Necromancer was published and how this might change mankind. Only a few people realize that in last few years we gained a racial memory, accessible all around the clock as well as a form of telepathy.

...or how would you call the ability to look shit up on Wikipedia on you smartphone whenever and wherever you like and then message you friend halfway around the world what information you just found online?

I have dabbled in racial memory and such beginning with Jung and getting in the modern form of this. Humanity and the race itself is, in a sense, a bigger form of the brain. Where each individual human mind is a neuron in the vast cascade of the human neural network. It's an interesting concept itself, and will indeed affect how VR is going to run in the future.

 

[Quijibo69]

VR is sooooo 1990's does anyone remember 3D?

 

[*Asterisk*]

I've been intrigued by the idea of a virtual reality simulator that provides the same sort of physical and sensory feedback you receive in the real world. I'm morbidly curious on whether or not the feedback would be intense enough to produce actual physical and mental feedback to your body outside the machine as well as within it. Would that mean anyone who experiences a fatal injury from within a VR environment could theoretically die in the real world of shock if the feedback was too strong? Would there be a way to have truly realistic feedback without this risk of mental or even physical damage? If human brains can be connected to a neural interface, would it be possible to use the computational power of the hooked-in human's brain to actually help run computational calculations?

But more importantly: will the human race die off if we can bang as many anime chicks as we want with total physical feedback and no risk of disease without ever needing to leave the house or risk unwanted pregnancy and disease?

That said, even if such perfect feedback strictly from VR is actually a long ways off, augmented reality could probably provide something close enough to an actual holodeck for most people's liking if things advance at the pace they're going currently within our lifetimes.

 

[Mecha-Lenin]

I'm morbidly curious on whether or not the feedback would be intense enough to produce actual physical and mental feedback to your body outside the machine as well as within it.

I personally am skeptical of it's possibility. The brain may be able to affect your limbs... but it has no capacity to cause third degree burns on your arm. It evolved to receive feedback to make snap decisions (and accociate damage with pain), there is no evolutionary benefit to being able to inflict all forms of possible physical injury or augmentation to your own body.

That said... it is more likely that you could simulate third degree burns in the brain with actually having said burns. After all, we all had nightmares where we felt uncomfortable sensations despite the fact that our bodies were fine.

 

[*Asterisk*]

I personally am skeptical of it's possibility. The brain may be able to affect your limbs... but it has no capacity to cause third degree burns on your arm. It evolved to receive feedback to make snap decisions (and accociate damage with pain), there is no evolutionary benefit to being able to inflict all forms of possible physical injury or augmentation to your own body.

That said... it is more likely that you could simulate third degree burns in the brain with actually having said burns. After all, we all had nightmares where we felt uncomfortable sensations despite the fact that our bodies were fine.

I'm not thinking of things like that scene in The Matrix where Matt Doran winds up with bullet wounds on his physical body after being shot in the digital world. I thought that was ludicrous before I had hair on my nuts. I'm thinking of things like the "Perchance to Dream" episode of The Twilight Zone where Richard Conte dies of shock due to a nightmare.

 

[Ravenor]

Ah VR 2016's version of 3D everything.

VR's a interesting technology, and one that's got a fuck ton of real world applications in a few fields but it won't take off for a while, like 3D most people won't readily accept it or use it while they have to ware glasses to interact with it in any way. It's fine if you have to do it once or twice but for the casual gamer etc who comes home plonks themselfs down on the couch to play a few rounds of COD Modern Spergwar that novelty isn't going to last for very long, I mean look at all the 3D capable TV's that got sold, and then look at them today they are nearly always used as 2D TV's and the glasses are missing or thrown away.

I thought that was ludicrous before I had hair on my nuts. I'm thinking of things like the "Perchance to Dream" episode of The Twilight Zone where Richard Conte dies of shock due to a nightmare.

What I think is interesting about that is it's a over reaction to a real world phenomena called The Rubber Hand Illusion.

The whole stigmatic wounding thing is a joke way over blown by SciFi, but a momentary feeling of pain of a hand getting hit with a hammer or stabbed with a knife and feeling it's real is interesting.

 

[Quijibo69]

I just used some VR things about a week ago. ( Samsung vr, Viewmaster vr and some off brand google cardboard crap). I don't think it's going to go anywhere because it felt like I watched a 2 hour movie in them even thought I only had them on for 20 mins! Some games you have to move you head to play them! It did work well but it got disoriented after a long time. It will likely go to the trash like the 3D tvs, xbox kinect and wii motions before them.

 

[AN/ALR56]

I just used some VR things about a week ago. ( Samsung vr, Viewmaster vr and some off brand google cardboard crap). I don't think it's going to go anywhere because it felt like I watched a 2 hour movie in them even thought I only had them on for 20 mins! Some games you have to move you head to play them! It did work well but it got disoriented after a long time. It will likely go to the trash like the 3D tvs, xbox kinect and wii motions before them.

VR is not the same gimmick as 3D Tv,Kinect and the wii.
3D failed due to the lack of contente,not enough improvement and the use of glasses(if the 3Ds tech was exported to a larger size(like OLEDs)then it would be very sucessful).
Kinect failed because on the 360 it din't work very,specially with shitty devs making crap games that had really poor code and ruined the reputation of Kinect,kinect 2.0 was killed because of poor marketing,and the bad rep that Kinect 1.0 got,although it Works really well(not perfectly though)
The wii was very sucessful,sadly nitendo fucked up its sucessor via its hilariously bad marketing and dev support.
VR now is the like the smarthphone,a revolutionary idea that once someone does it ''right''(like the iphone)
Sure its expensive for now,but prices will drop down quickly in the next couple years.
It has some challenges that it will have to face to be sucessful:

1. Dev Support,VR like 4k,blu ray,and 3d needs large amounts of exclusive and very high quality content to sell
2. Technology:As you said it,its not very good for long periods of time,they need to improve input lag(probably the cause of your disorientation,and they need to improve the frame rate,and pixel density.
3. Price,the availability of VR is crucial to its popularity,they need to quickly reduce unit costs and improve production to make it available to a larger demographics.
4. Input,like the iphone's touchscreen,they need to somehow develop a input device that is easy to use and intuitive and confortable,this is a very hard thing that i can't even imagine how they gonna fix this.

Anyway,VR is not a cheap gimmick that barely improves the experience and costs much more(like 3d,high def audio,SACD's).
But they need to those 4 things otherwise it will flop hard.
Virtual reality is a dream from the late 80s that only now the tech has evolved enough to