Disaster ‘We Don't Know a Planet Like This': CO2 Levels Hit 415 PPM for First Time in 3 Million+ Years - Bring your scuba gear

Sprig of Parsley

kiwifarms.net
CO2 is wonderful stuff. When concentrations in the atmosphere were really, really high the earth turned it into the delicious coal that allowed us to become what we are. It also gave us dragonflies with three foot wingspans, which is really fucking cool.
Dragonflies and such are neat but I think I prefer them at their current size. I mean, you know what else is going to get huge? Wasps. Yeah.
 

Weppers

kiwifarms.net
Everybody keeps bitching about climate change like nothing has changed in 30 years. The fact is, we're working on it. The U.S. maxed out its hydroelectric capacity decades ago and there are always more wind turbines and solar farms under construction. They want to calamitize the issue and keep crowing about the urgency of carbon emissions like no one is doing anything. They never want to draw attention to all the real work that is being done. Trump may not personally like wind turbines but he sure as hell hasn't stopped Texas from building them. It's going to be OK, people. It's going to be OK.
 
But you don't even have to, because significantly cutting emissions instead of completely getting rid of them is enough to avert a currently inevitable catastrophe. However even that's not gonna happen, so none of it matters.
Hmm catastrophe you say. Which particular upcoming doomsday are you referring to, and may I see your dataset?

People keep repeating it but that doesn't make it any truer. And when the world was 12 years from destruction for my entire life, I start to think these morons don't know what they're talking about...
 

Gustav Schuchardt

https://brave.com/kiw706
kiwifarms.net
CO2 is wonderful stuff. When concentrations in the atmosphere were really, really high the earth turned it into the delicious coal that allowed us to become what we are. It also gave us dragonflies with three foot wingspans, which is really fucking cool.
Pretty sure the big insects were there because of higher oxygen levels, not higher CO2 level.

E.g. beetle size is limited by atmospheric O2 levels


Giant insects might crawl on Earth or fly above it if there was just more oxygen in the air, scientists report.

Roughly 300 million years ago, giant insects scuttled around and fluttered over the planet, with dragonflies bearing wingspans comparable to hawks at two-and-a-half feet. Back then, oxygen made up 35 percent of the air, compared to the 21 percent we breathe now.

Not all the insects back then were giants, but still, "maybe 10 percent were big enough to be considered giant," insect physiologist Alexander Kaiser at Midwestern University in Glendale, Ariz., told LiveScience.

Breathe deep

To see if more richly oxygenated air could result in bigger insects, Kaiser and his colleagues investigated whether the current atmosphere was limiting insect size. They compared four species of beetles, ranging in size from about one-tenth of an inch to roughly 1.5 inches.

Specifically, the researchers looked at the size of tubes known as tracheae in the insects, which circulate air in and out of their bodies [image]. While humans possess one trachea, insects have a whole system of tracheae that connect to each other and the atmosphere.

As beetle species grew larger, X-rays showed their tracheae took up more of their bodies than the rise in their body size would predict—about 20 percent more. This is because as the beetles grew in size, their tracheae had to grow even more to handle the greater oxygen demands of the insects.

Limiting factor

Eventually tracheae cannot develop beyond a certain size. Based on their calculations, the researchers figure modern beetles cannot grow larger than about six inches. This happens to be about the size of the largest beetle known—the Titanic longhorn beetle, Titanus giganteus, from South America, Kaiser said.

If the atmosphere in the past held more oxygen, tracheae could be narrower and still deliver enough oxygen for a much larger insect. This would lead to a much larger size limit, Kaiser concluded.

The scientists presented their findings at a meeting of the American Physiological Society this week.
The limiting factor for beetles is the trachea leading to their legs


Recent studies have suggested that Paleozoic hyperoxia enabled animal gigantism, and the subsequent hypoxia drove a reduction in animal size. This evolutionary hypothesis depends on the argument that gas exchange in many invertebrates and skin-breathing vertebrates becomes compromised at large sizes because of distance effects on diffusion. In contrast to vertebrates, which use respiratory and circulatory systems in series, gas exchange in insects is almost exclusively determined by the tracheal system, providing a particularly suitable model to investigate possible limitations of oxygen delivery on size. In this study, we used synchrotron x-ray phase-contrast imaging to visualize the tracheal system and quantify its dimensions in four species of darkling beetles varying in mass by 3 orders of magnitude. We document that, in striking contrast to the pattern observed in vertebrates, larger insects devote a greater fraction of their body to the respiratory system, as tracheal volume scaled with mass^1.29. The trend is greatest in the legs; the cross-sectional area of the trachea penetrating the leg orifice scaled with mass^ 1.02, whereas the cross-sectional area of the leg orifice scaled with mass^0.77. These trends suggest the space available for tracheae within the leg may ultimately limit the maximum size of extant beetles. Because the size of the tracheal system can be reduced when oxygen supply is increased, hyperoxia, as occurred during late Carboniferous and early Permian, may have facilitated the evolution of giant insects by allowing limbs to reach larger sizes before the tracheal system became limited by spatial constraints.
If we were dinosaur or beetle scientists a few hundred million years ago we'd probably think that the drop in reactive gases - O2 and CO2 - and the rise in N2 which is not that biologically active was looming threat to Life As We Know It.

People keep repeating it but that doesn't make it any truer. And when the world was 12 years from destruction for my entire life, I start to think these morons don't know what they're talking about...
Yup. It's a bunch of activist/journalist/blogger types hyping up the changes to try to claim the world will end in a couple of decades. Which it won't.

The climate does change though and it over millions of years it could well change to the point where present day humans would be unsuited. Of course over millions of years evolution can work wonders. And over even a few hundred years human knowledge of our genetics will allow us to make those changes a lot quicker. And we could probably work out how to geoengineer the climate too.

In a sense those activist/journalist/blogger types who want radical economic change are right - the only crisis that would wipe us out would need to happen very quickly - over the order of years to decades.
 
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Cryin RN

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Climate change isnt a scam, but the way it’s pushed as the single biggest threat I think is incorrect. The biggest environmental threats are linked to environmental degradation - us fucking up entire ecosystems. Water / system pollution, human encroachment on previously pristine areas, biodiversity loss, etc. Pushing everything on CO2 alone is the wrong way to make the public concerned IMO. It touts a huge, doom scenario with no positive actions and it cannot be definitively measured in terms of projecting out what will actually happen, because we don’t know.

If people were focusing on smaller local issues that CAN be improved (like: let’s not let industry x vent waste products into this area of wetlands, or how can we manage the amazon basin to preserve water flow and biodiversity so that whatever plant has a miracle cure for cancer isn’t wiped out) then I think we’d see more progress. People feel powerless in the face of climate change but they can and will fight to have their local wilderness areas kept nice places to hike and camp in.
Totally agree. I think a lot of right-leaning climate spergs out of the school of Patron Saint Ben Shapiro jump at one study being inaccurate and take it to mean there's no significant threats to the environment after all. But even if atmospheric gases were a total non-issue (they're an issue), humans are absolutely wrecking every ecosystem they border on and driving thousands of species to extinction. Extinction isn't necessary to fuel the capitalist machine and provide Americans with jobs, it's just a by-product of people not giving a shit and e.g. dredging protected wetland behind their house so they can build a dock. Urbanization can take a little blame because city dwellers tend to be VERY disconnected from the effects of their consumption and don't notice that there's no butterflies left in their backyards.

I really wish that environmental protections were a bi-partisan issue. It's bizarre to me that Republicans don't lean on preserving uniquely American natural systems as a source of national pride. It could do a lot of good.
 
Totally agree. I think a lot of right-leaning climate spergs out of the school of Patron Saint Ben Shapiro jump at one study being inaccurate and take it to mean there's no significant threats to the environment after all. But even if atmospheric gases were a total non-issue (they're an issue), humans are absolutely wrecking every ecosystem they border on and driving thousands of species to extinction. Extinction isn't necessary to fuel the capitalist machine and provide Americans with jobs, it's just a by-product of people not giving a shit and e.g. dredging protected wetland behind their house so they can build a dock. Urbanization can take a little blame because city dwellers tend to be VERY disconnected from the effects of their consumption and don't notice that there's no butterflies left in their backyards.

I really wish that environmental protections were a bi-partisan issue. It's bizarre to me that Republicans don't lean on preserving uniquely American natural systems as a source of national pride. It could do a lot of good.
I do too, but it's important to remember the separation between extinction, pollution, ecosystem destruction, you know, actual measureable obviously bad things, and atmospheric CO2 which relates to none of those things.

If you want to point to valid environmental problems and say "see dumbass righties? Climate change is real!" Don't expect much engagement. The planet does not have a fever. The planet is not on fire. It is kinda getting dirty though, and the sooner we address that the better
 

Coccxys

kiwifarms.net
If people didn't turn climate change into a pseudo-religion where belief in the thing is more important than any evidence all while using it to push a political agenda the whole thing would be much easier to deal with.

I have a co-worker who ree's about how the government should force everyone to be vegan and create "true" gender equality to prevent climate change. That is what puts people off having a reasonable discussion about what we can change.
 
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If people didn't turn climate change into a pseudo-religion where belief in the thing is more important than any evidence all while using it to much a political agenda the whole thing would be much easier to deal with.

I have a co-worker who ree's about how the government should force everyone to be vegan and create "true" gender equality to prevent climate change. That is what puts people off having a reasonable discussion about what we can change.
The only reason we're still talking about climate change is smug liberals being wrong and refusing to come to terms with it.
When your theory's predictions are constantly wildly wrong why keep going back to that theory? Because otherwise you might have to admit those dumb conservatives might have had a point 20 fucking years ago when Al gore started this exceptional political movement.
 

Mewtwo_Rain

Drown in the cesspool of darkness
kiwifarms.net
The only reason we're still talking about climate change is smug liberals being wrong and refusing to come to terms with it.
When your theory's predictions are constantly wildly wrong why keep going back to that theory? Because otherwise you might have to admit those dumb conservatives might have had a point 20 fucking years ago when Al gore started this exceptional political movement.

It's even worse than that. Those smug and hypocritical liberals keep making contradictory positions and actions. There were studies a while back that those who embraced global warming were also more likely to pollute. Sure not the same thing, but pollution doesn't help the world either. Then they also want open borders despite it being shown it escalates the carbon emissions of the atmosphere.

Most people can't tell if liberals are serious or just as brain dead as they appear whether global warming is real or not or the impact of it is as great a magnitude as implied. If the liberals were more logically consistent by example I'm sure more people would be on board, but as they are... Well it makes it hard to trust their claims.
 

The Gay Banana

kiwifarms.net
Overpopulation is a huge concern, but so is the growing middle class in developing countries. It used to be the case that the consumption of one american equaled thirty indians. With the growing Indian economy that number is getting smaller and smaller.
 

kcbbq

No controlling legal authority
kiwifarms.net
Pretty sure the big insects were there because of higher oxygen levels, not higher CO2 level.

E.g. beetle size is limited by atmospheric O2 levels




The limiting factor for beetles is the trachea leading to their legs




If we were dinosaur or beetle scientists a few hundred million years ago we'd probably think that the drop in reactive gases - O2 and CO2 - and the rise in N2 which is not that biologically active was looming threat to Life As We Know It.



Yup. It's a bunch of activist/journalist/blogger types hyping up the changes to try to claim the world will end in a couple of decades. Which it won't.

The climate does change though and it over millions of years it could well change to the point where present day humans would be unsuited. Of course over millions of years evolution can work wonders. And over even a few hundred years human knowledge of our genetics will allow us to make those changes a lot quicker. And we could probably work out how to geoengineer the climate too.

In a sense those activist/journalist/blogger types who want radical economic change are right - the only crisis that would wipe us out would need to happen very quickly - over the order of years to decades.
There was more oxygen, because plant life went apeshit due to the temperatures and CO2. The Carboniferous period is fascinating. Atmospheric oxygen was half again as high as it is now, CO2 was double (800 ppm iirc).

Some arthropods grew to almost 8 feet long and 2 feet wide during that period. It's drive-in horror film made reality.
 
Global warming is a thing that most people, both on the denial and believer side, don't understand and mentally substitute whatever they want.

Some people like using "global warming" as a cudgel, "those dummies don't even believe in the upcoming apocolypse that 97% of scientists agree is definitely coming right away!". You saw the right trying to do this from the opposite end early on, with pathetically hilarious fails like bringing a snowball into the senate... they have wisely given up on that tactic.

It's used to deflect any other conversation, since, if the world is ending in 12 years, shouldn't that override pretty much everything? And yeah, if it were at all legit, you'd think it would. Yet the dems are content to talk about it twice a year or so, and are more concerned with abortion.

So yeah, the left doesn't believe it as much as they claim to because if they did, they'd be panicking.
 

Otterly

Primark Primarch
kiwifarms.net
Veganism isn’t going to help, unless everyone ONLY eats food grown within a near radius of home. Stuff like almond tard cum is really bad for the environment - and many vegan staples have huge ecological footprints...and b12 sufficient to supplement 7 billion humans? Where’s that coming from? Humans are omnivores and do fine on a huge range of stuff but no historical population has been strictly vegan because we have an obligate need for b12.

Less meat, fine. Stop cutting down vast tracts of forest to graze beef? Definitely. Grow bugs for protein? We might have to. But some upland areas especially are no good for habitation or arable crops - the welsh uplands, the moorland areas? Grazing works well.

It’s habitat destruction and pollution that’s killing the earth. Stop chucking fertiliser and plastic into the sea. Stop cutting down rainforest for agriculture (if nothing else the soils are too thin to support it sustainably.)

We need to start seeing the ecosystems and resources of the planet as valuable economically. As a source of drugs, other unique compounds, fuels, foods etc.

Pinning everything on carbon is a shit idea, and I say that as someone who does think climate change is a thing. It’s too abstract. Look at the public reactions to disasters and issues where you can SEE the damage - Exxon Valdez, for example, or the ocean plastic issue.

There’s also the emergent disease issue (forgive me, but emergent plagues are a fun side hobby of mine.) stuff like hantavirus, hendravirus etc. When we encroach on habits we have never been in, we encounter pathogens we have no immunity to, and short term, that’s pathogen 1, humanity 0. The next andromeda strain is likely lurking in a rainforest somewhere, just waiting for some humans to cone slashing and burning....
 

kcbbq

No controlling legal authority
kiwifarms.net
Global warming is a thing that most people, both on the denial and believer side, don't understand and mentally substitute whatever they want.

Some people like using "global warming" as a cudgel, "those dummies don't even believe in the upcoming apocolypse that 97% of scientists agree is definitely coming right away!". You saw the right trying to do this from the opposite end early on, with pathetically hilarious fails like bringing a snowball into the senate... they have wisely given up on that tactic.

It's used to deflect any other conversation, since, if the world is ending in 12 years, shouldn't that override pretty much everything? And yeah, if it were at all legit, you'd think it would. Yet the dems are content to talk about it twice a year or so, and are more concerned with abortion.

So yeah, the left doesn't believe it as much as they claim to because if they did, they'd be panicking.
I just seriously dislike the histrionics. "It's never been warmer!" It's not even the warmest period of the last 100k years. The Earth has been through some shit and had to restart a few times from scratch. Even if "Snowball Earth" didn't happen, the Huron Glaciation did. It's gone to the other extreme, too.

"We are destroying the planet!" raises more money than "We are making life difficult." but one is far more honest than the other.
 

BrunoMattei

Vincent Dawn
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
The 'global warming is a scam' scam was perpetrated by wealthy oil and coal conglomerates in order to protect their business, much like how cigarette companies bribed and mislead doctors.


Get double conspiracy'd, fag.
And the corporations give no fuck because they're developing the rockets and colonizing of Mars to start all over again.

Get triple conspiracy theorie'd you cocksucker.
 

Poiseon

I am literal poison.
kiwifarms.net
China and India actually produce much less CO2 per capita than Western countries, with India putting out three times less CO2 than US while being five times larger. Most of their raw output comes from population size, so you can't really force them to do anything. But you don't even have to, because significantly cutting emissions instead of completely getting rid of them is enough to avert a currently inevitable catastrophe. However even that's not gonna happen, so none of it matters.
Oh I know about Co2 emissions in regards to India (Though China, as of 2018, emits more Co2 than The US and the EU combined. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/#2edae0c9628c)

But I didn't mean Co2 overall. Overproduction of cheap plastics, and other industrial wastes due to the extremely inefficient industrial processes third world countries have. The reason climate change wolf criers annoy me so much is because they ignore very real environmental issues in favor of this, 'Earth getting warmer we're all gonna die' shit.

The plastic build up in the oceans and toxic industrial waste dumps building up around the planet are far more concerning to me than increasing temperatures. Which can be damaging, but is also nothing compared to other shifts the planet goes through. Did you know the Sahara desert in Africa is luscious and green every 25,000 years or so? Things like this shift. The ocean is far more concerning. 70% of our oxygen comes from undersea plants. Without them, Co2 won't be changed into oxygen nearly as much, making any climate shifts far worse. A preemptive way to curb these temperature shifts would be committing to a massive oceanic clean up effort, and a international agreement to end commercial fishing for a few decades to allow our oceans to recover. If fish populations recover, the plant life will recover alongside them. Doing this and expanding existing national forests and perhaps building up more inner city parks and encouraging houseplants. Poison the oceans, and you poison rainwater. That will do far more than these screeching lefties think Co2 will.
 

Smaug's Smokey Hole

don't step on me
kiwifarms.net
I've been hearing that since I was a kid and I'm not even close to being young anymore. Are we going to kill ourselves already or is this some kind of multi-century-long cock-tease because I'm tired of waiting to embrace death. Drop the goddamned bass already I'm getting bored.
Remember when we were all going to die from asphyxiation because the rain forests were cut down?
 
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Remember when we were all going to die from asphyxiation because the rain forests were cut down?
I don't quite remember the asphyxiation angle being played, but yeah I remember the panic over them. I remember idiots panicking in the US about our logging, even though our logging industry generally plants more than they cut and are 100% sustainable.

Trendy environmental causes also sometimes ending up causing more environmental problems than they solve. Avoiding wood because cutting down trees is bad in favor of plastic that never decomposes was a really dumb consequence of that...
 

Dr W

Heaven is void of light
kiwifarms.net
I don't quite remember the asphyxiation angle being played, but yeah I remember the panic over them. I remember idiots panicking in the US about our logging, even though our logging industry generally plants more than they cut and are 100% sustainable.
Fun fact, more rainforest is destroyed for farming than for logging. Logging areas while planting trees is sustainable, if the soil can sustain that.
 
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