Weightlifting for Kiwis - Discussion and support regarding the art of swole

[Artificial Baits]

You'll never get that supra-physiological appearance that steroids give you, but I personally think that looks like shit anyway. Those dudes will deflate as soon as they come off cycle. And if they never trained as a strength athlete, weightlifter, or anything actually requiring some degree of athleticism, they basically have nothing when it comes to an end. Absolutely retarded.

Plenty of people take gear and look like shit and plenty of people look great who do not. I've had people accuse me of using for years before I did a couple of cycles of SARMS and mild orals. You will retain your strength and your size if you train and eat right continously. I'm the biggest I've ever been and some of the strongest and not touched a thing for several years

I do however agree people shouldn't just jump on them. In my opinion people should reach their natural potential at first and maybe consider them for certain strength/aesthetics competitions. Still those who use them accordingly are not walking pharmaceutical companies and as long as you take blood tests and PCT, you can manage or mitigate side effects.

My point is that steroids aren't evil, but it's a science to do them correctly and you should work with somebody who understands what works for your goals. They should not be used instead of hardwork and proper nutrition, ever

 

[nigger of the north]

Plenty of people take gear and look like shit and plenty of people look great who do not. I've had people accuse me of using for years before I did a couple of cycles of SARMS and mild orals. You will retain your strength and your size if you train and eat right continously. I'm the biggest I've ever been and some of the strongest and not touched a thing for several years

I do however agree people shouldn't just jump on them. In my opinion people should reach their natural potential at first and maybe consider them for certain strength/aesthetics competitions. Still those who use them accordingly are not walking pharmaceutical companies and as long as you take blood tests and PCT, you can manage or mitigate side effects.

My point is that steroids aren't evil, but it's a science to do them correctly and you should work with somebody who understands what works for your goals. They should not be used instead of hardwork and proper nutrition, ever

Sure, but I was referring specifically to the exaggerated, basketball-like medial delts that resemble pauldrons or NFL style shoulder pads. A very, very small number of people have the genetics to make that happen naturally. Same goes for the 'hanging' D-cup pecs, insane size and 'road map' vascularity et al. Not attainable for most experienced lifters without gear, period.

I've been both asked for gear at the gym before, and asked if I was using myself. I take it as a compliment, which is really the only way to go about it.

As posted above, my long-term aim is competing in weightlifting, so gear for aesthetics isn't even on my radar. I'd be looking at longevity, recovery and the like. I'm not gonna rule it out, but if I can reach some significant numbers and maintain intensity well into my thirties, I won't bother. No judgement on those who choose to join the dark side.

You mention still being big and strong despite being natural for years. The general consensus is that once you've used, you're never really natural again, due to lasting change on a genetic level. Could be bro science, I gave no idea. Never really researched things in that level of detail before. What do you think?

 

[Artificial Baits]

The general consensus is that once you've used, you're never really natural again, due to lasting change on a genetic level. Could be bro science, I gave no idea. Never really researched things in that level of detail before. What do you think?

I am sure there is potentially some merit to it, but I think that is down to how much and how long somebody used for. If somebody was an habitual user in high doses (a la Bostin Lloyd), I think maybe there has been some genetic alterations. I am not sure if for somebody like myself, who used lowest dosage of Winstrol at the end of a six month cut for three weeks to prevent catabolism would make a lasting impact. It definitely kept me strong and I hardened out a lot, got leaner than ever, but I am pretty chunky now unless I keep tabs on my diet. I guess maybe Dorian Yates is a good example, the guy looks good for his age but average, however I do believe that should he apply training as he used to he could potentially grow rapidly compared to others. But that could also just be genetics maybe?

I was watching a video by Derek from More Plates More Dates, where he reacted to a seminar of Tom Platz talking about gear use and he stated that some people are natural freaks and just gain under the right training stimulus. Whereas others are hyper responders to steroid use, i.e. naturally huge guys would not make the same gains under similar protocols. Maybe the lasting genetic alterations lay in whether you are genetically pre-disposed to responding positively to gear use?

 

[ToroidalBoat]

I don't know if kiwis can lift that much. Their wings are pretty much vestigial, and their little feet are under much floof.

 

[JustFuckinaDude]

I am sure there is potentially some merit to it, but I think that is down to how much and how long somebody used for. If somebody was an habitual user in high doses (a la Bostin Lloyd), I think maybe there has been some genetic alterations. I am not sure if for somebody like myself, who used lowest dosage of Winstrol at the end of a six month cut for three weeks to prevent catabolism would make a lasting impact. It definitely kept me strong and I hardened out a lot, got leaner than ever, but I am pretty chunky now unless I keep tabs on my diet. I guess maybe Dorian Yates is a good example, the guy looks good for his age but average, however I do believe that should he apply training as he used to he could potentially grow rapidly compared to others. But that could also just be genetics maybe?

I was watching a video by Derek from More Plates More Dates, where he reacted to a seminar of Tom Platz talking about gear use and he stated that some people are natural freaks and just gain under the right training stimulus. Whereas others are hyper responders to steroid use, i.e. naturally huge guys would not make the same gains under similar protocols. Maybe the lasting genetic alterations lay in whether you are genetically pre-disposed to responding positively to gear use?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/breakingmuscle.com/amp/fitness/once-youve-used-steroids-is-it-possible-to-ever-compete-clean-again

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/1999/11000/Effects_of_anabolic_steroids_on_the_muscle_cells.6.aspx

“In conclusion, from the view of sports medicine, the increase in nuclear content might reflect a long-standing doping effect. Taking anabolic steroids for a period dopes the muscles with more nuclei, which can be used to synthesize more proteins upon future strength training. Although all the subjects in this study are high-level power lifters with similar performances, the possibility of a genetic endowment contributing to the differences observed between the two groups cannot be excluded.”

There’s definitely something to be said about genetics, but it makes sense that steroid use can confer long term advantages.

 

[Bassomatic]

Well then, prick my ass and call it saline! What a strange read, this totally won't get people to NOT use gear. @DutchOven hit it best, roids are a tool and an advanced one, if you want to play do it but you really need to be aware of what they are. I've seen more than I like to admit who just cocktail themselves and suck. A rough rule of thumb I've been told and apply to others is 1 year of dedicated lifting before you start thinking of gear.

You really need to know what your body can do on it's own for a lot of reasons, before you look into adding something. In one year you have time to alter work outs to build your goal (goals probably change for new lifters) adapt to your exact body, have ups and downs and learn to deal. Same with injuries etc.

Then you can start thinking, what if anything do I need to add? If it is indeed roids then you will also be versed enough in exercise etc to know what will work with your needs and wants because they aren't magic and some have side effects, others cost issues, and do different things in different way, and above that, just because our bodies differ in ways, you might see different results and need to alter your cycle etc.

This is all from minecraft learning, I assure you.

 

[Artificial Baits]

Derek from More Plates More Dates just posted this video and it's quite interesting because it shows a total newbie doing a pretty heavy cycle and he was back to square one post cycle.

What a strange read, this totally won't get people to NOT use gear

Haha! I think talking about PED's is important because it definitely happens and it is better to educate people on the realistic outcomes, than let people assume it's a shortcut to gains (like the guy from the Reddit post in the link above). Steroid work, of course, but NOTHING beats hard work, consistency and being on point with nutrition for the best results.

Anyways, my fellow lifters. I pose a question now - what are your thoughts on high bar vs low bar squats? I seem to be able to hit better depth for low bar but my form is nicer through lower back with high bar. All bar lifts are shit unless I warm up this old carcass for a solid 30 minutes with gentle cardio, stretching and warm up sets. My goal is a strength progression (for now) but I have no intention on doing powerlifting competitions, equally I don't want to be a quarter repper. Should I focus on improving my low bar so I can go ass-to-grass or stick with high bar and be okay with not having my hamstrings touch calves? I still hit just below parallel but something about ATG squats is just *chef's kiss*

 

[Helvítis Túristi]

I've been working individual muscles once every week. So I have exercise days for chest, back, shoulders, legs, and triceps/biceps. I feel like I'm increasing strength in some muscles, but not other muscles. There is noticable muscle gain, and I can see the scale saying I weigh more. However, I'm wondering if it would be better to do each muscle group twice a week.

 

[Bloitzhole]

I've been working individual muscles once every week. So I have exercise days for chest, back, shoulders, legs, and triceps/biceps. I feel like I'm increasing strength in some muscles, but not other muscles. There is noticable muscle gain, and I can see the scale saying I weigh more. However, I'm wondering if it would be better to do each muscle group twice a week.

Chest and shoulder works triceps, back works biceps - you might see an increase in that area, though that shouldn't be much of an issue. Are you using a barbell or dumbbells for bench/shoulder press? Which muscles are giving you "trouble"? You might want to forego the separate biceps/triceps day in favor of lower-body centric workout (deadlifts, glute bridge) so that it's just not 1 leg day and 4 upper body days but 2 and 3, incorporating triceps and biceps into chest/shoulder and back respectively.

 

[Helvítis Túristi]

Chest and shoulder works triceps, back works biceps - you might see an increase in that area, though that shouldn't be much of an issue. Are you using a barbell or dumbbells for bench/shoulder press? Which muscles are giving you "trouble"? You might want to forego the separate biceps/triceps day in favor of lower-body centric workout (deadlifts, glute bridge) so that it's just not 1 leg day and 4 upper body days but 2 and 3, incorporating triceps and biceps into chest/shoulder and back respectively.

Wall of text, so spoilered it. TL;DR I don't eat enough, losing mass, help, how eat cheap when lacking time.

Spoiler

So I need some assistance from the kiwis after having a pretty bum year overall, but especially when it comes to muscle mass because I don't eat enough.
I seem to have developed a lack of cravings in general - my body can go for an entire day without alerting me that I need to eat, only notifying me that nothing has been ingested once I try to do something that requires a lot of energy (and get light headed).

First year I worked out (long ago) I had enough free time to have proper meals because I had a university stipend, and gained 24 lbs in muscle within 12 months. I've lost 12 lbs of that even though I continue to work out because I just can't get enough food and protein inside myself and my muscles self-cannibalize. It's really disheartening when you lift regularly, but every few weeks, your reps (even with bodyweight exercises) and/or weights, get worse.

Buying food costs money and preparing it costs time if you want to eat stuff that's actually tasty - the cheapest healthy source of both calories and protein is peanuts, 2.2 pounds of which costs around 2 bucks where I live, providing ~2800 calories and 80g of protein, so almost enough protein for a day when regenerating from lifting - but just eating peanuts will wreak havoc on your digestion.

I usually pair a few handful of those with rice, onions and legumes in extra spicy curries / dal - lentils and white beans being my go to because again, they are dirt cheap. I can make a big pot on sunday and pair it with a pound of rice to get ~6 good portions for the week ahead (the enormous amounts of chilli act as a bit of an extra preservative in the fridge), usually with some peas I reheat while I take my morning shower. This has essentially become a daily staple for lunch (and I bring it in a thermos when I'm not working from home) that costs me around 1€ per portion
(6 portions consisting of: 60 cents for curry paste, 1.8€ for beans and lentils, 1.2€ for rice, 2€ for peanuts, 25 cents for peas and onions. This provides about 30g of protein per portion and I suspect around 800-1000 calories).

I have also found shitty, dirt cheap sugar cookies. A package that costs 1.10 will provide 2350 calories and 27g of protein. I've started eating a cookie every 4-5 hours

Adding a daily block of mozzarella with a little olive oil, balsamic vinegar and salt and pepper would add around 320 calories and 30g of protein while only costing around 80 cents.

I also take a scoop of whey isolate with water every day for ~30g of protein and barely any calories.

I've started adding this cheapo weird syrupy thing to my half gallon of water a day to get another 150 calories (if I increase it any more the sweetness makes me gag, I don't really like the taste of sweet)

I'm still missing a third option to add 30-40 more grams of protein and 1000 calories (ideally for less than 1.5$) as well as a good way of actually remembering to eat besides alarms (which I tend to disregard because I always have shit to do the moment it rings) to get what I require for my body to be properly fueled and regenerating. Everything I outlined would probably be enough to maintain muscle mass, but on many days, I'll just forget to eat in general or only have 1 meal in the morning and forget until I'm about to head to bed.

I wish I could add stuff like oatmeal (just oats and water and yogurt+honey) for breakfast, but the moment my body senses a slightly larger fiber intake, especially in the morning with my coffee, it immediately decides that everything and everyone needs to make a run for the escape capsules - so unfortunately typical grains, even when soaked and cooked, are not an option.

Whenever I have my blood values checked, they're fucking ace - doesn't help with gains though. I hydrate properly.

I see increase in strength except of chest presses. I was using barbell, but I might try to reduce weight and do higher rep maybe. That or do higher weight of dumbell and then go light on barbell. I do deadlifts on back day, but I don't do the double leg day since my legs tend to be more muscled than the rest of my body. I've done more bike riding and running in my life. Now that it's getting close to spring, I'm going to be doing bike rides or runs on off days. One thing that does bother me, is that sometimes I feel like I'm gaining mass in the tricep/bicep area while other times it feels like there's no change. Just like you, I think the issue for that might be some weeks I don't get enough protein or eat enough.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/breakingmuscle.com/amp/fitness/once-youve-used-steroids-is-it-possible-to-ever-compete-clean-again

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/1999/11000/Effects_of_anabolic_steroids_on_the_muscle_cells.6.aspx

“In conclusion, from the view of sports medicine, the increase in nuclear content might reflect a long-standing doping effect. Taking anabolic steroids for a period dopes the muscles with more nuclei, which can be used to synthesize more proteins upon future strength training. Although all the subjects in this study are high-level power lifters with similar performances, the possibility of a genetic endowment contributing to the differences observed between the two groups cannot be excluded.”

There’s definitely something to be said about genetics, but it makes sense that steroid use can confer long term advantages.

That's what I've heard, too. Basically your muscle gets more receptors during periods of high testosterone, so even when your hormone levels are normal again you benefit from the testosterone you do have more than a lifetime natty would

 

[nigger of the north]

Derek from More Plates More Dates just posted this video and it's quite interesting because it shows a total newbie doing a pretty heavy cycle and he was back to square one post cycle.



Haha! I think talking about PED's is important because it definitely happens and it is better to educate people on the realistic outcomes, than let people assume it's a shortcut to gains (like the guy from the Reddit post in the link above). Steroid work, of course, but NOTHING beats hard work, consistency and being on point with nutrition for the best results.

Anyways, my fellow lifters. I pose a question now - what are your thoughts on high bar vs low bar squats? I seem to be able to hit better depth for low bar but my form is nicer through lower back with high bar. All bar lifts are shit unless I warm up this old carcass for a solid 30 minutes with gentle cardio, stretching and warm up sets. My goal is a strength progression (for now) but I have no intention on doing powerlifting competitions, equally I don't want to be a quarter repper. Should I focus on improving my low bar so I can go ass-to-grass or stick with high bar and be okay with not having my hamstrings touch calves? I still hit just below parallel but something about ATG squats is just *chef's kiss*

Re - the low/high bar question, I think it comes down to your own goals.

Powerlifters are pretty much hemmed in to low bar, wide stance squats, due to the vast majority of people (regardless of levers and morphology) able to push more weight that way. Weightlifters optimise the high bar ATG squat due to its continuation in the snatch and C&J, better receiving position, etc. The latter is very quad dominant, where the former is more posterior chain and glute activating.

I'm a weightlifter, so I've only ever done high bar. Contrary to popular belief, high bar is better for your knees. The knee girdle and patellar tendons experience some relief when relaxing into a deep squat/resting on your haunches - where a below parallel squat will see continuous stress on the knees, particular at the point of concentric or upward movement.

I'd say the deciding factor is whether you want to powerlift or not. If so, honing your low bar technique is the way to go. I can't think of a single dedicated powerlifter who squats a weightlifter-esque high bar; more numerous variations of low bar, ranging from fairly deep squats like Jamal Browner, to that gay super low bar shit which more resembles a good morning.

Anyway, enough sperging.

 

[JustFuckinaDude]

Anyone know what the kettlebell equivalent of Starting Strength/ 5x5 is? Basic, effective, and to the point?

Asking because life isn’t allowing much gym time anymore, but I did luck into some heavyish kettlebells.

 

[Troon Carey]

Longstory short after restarting my weight lifting regimen I have decided to create a thread for all kiwis interested in getting started lifting, or experienced lifter kiwis interested in sharing advice for newbies. Basically if anyone wants to offer up their workout plan for constructive criticism or asspats, ask questions about how to start or what to focus on, or just idley brood over the fact they are not yet Arnold schwarzinigger in terms of bulk.

To start us off (and what will probably be the only post in this thread) here is my current workout plan. Its a highly modified StrongLifts focusing on low reps and high weight compound exercises.

basically i do this three times a week (monday, wednesday, friday) and try to increase the weight by 2.5kg whenever I can. I started off at like 50kg accross the board back three years ago, but i unfortunately I had a tendancy to get to a certain level and then give up for months, thus losing my progress so had i stuck to it I would probably be at a decent bit higher weight. Its majorly hard work at the moment but im sticking to the regimen fairly well so far. If anypony has constructive criticism to give or anyone else want to talk about their regimen feel free to plonk it on this thread

(also if you wondering why the squat weight is so low, i got crappy knees)

Also if anyone wants to ask about or discuss equipment that will be fine too, especially since that shit is pricy as fuck, and advice on what kind of weights/barbell and what kind of weightstand to get will probably be useful

Is it optional to have my best male friend oil me up while I do this or required?

 

[CivilianOfTheFandomWars]

Is it optional to have my best male friend oil me up while I do this or required?

Proper lubrication is imperative for hypertrophy.

 

[Bassomatic]

Anyone know what the kettlebell equivalent of Starting Strength/ 5x5 is? Basic, effective, and to the point?

Asking because life isn’t allowing much gym time anymore, but I did luck into some heavyish kettlebells.

Different tools for different jobs. So imho can't replace for a lot of reasons.

Mrs basso got me an 8lb one at 5 below (nice to see weights at sub a buck a lb) but so far its a door stop.

I could suggest a few things with heavier kbs but nothing like your big 3 or an SS plan.

 

[JustFuckinaDude]

Different tools for different jobs. So imho can't replace for a lot of reasons.

Mrs basso got me an 8lb one at 5 below (nice to see weights at sub a buck a lb) but so far its a door stop.

I could suggest a few things with heavier kbs but nothing like your big 3 or an SS plan.

As I understand it, there’s the big six: Swing, Clean, Press, Snatch, Squat, Get Up.

Maybe do pyramids until I can get something heavier than 53s, working pistols instead of squats using the SS format?

Squat
Clean
Press

Squat
Snatch
Swing

Get Ups on off days? I don’t know, I’ll play with it for now.

 

[Bassomatic]

As I understand it, there’s the big six: Swing, Clean, Press, Snatch, Squat, Get Up.

Maybe do pyramids until I can get something heavier than 53s, working pistols instead of squats using the SS format?

Squat
Clean
Press

Squat
Snatch
Swing

Get Ups on off days? I don’t know, I’ll play with it for now.

Big 3 of power lifting bench, squat, DL.

For what you are listing it seems pretty useful.

To copy SS I think a basic power lifting is a decent replacement (oh I know people will slap me for this) but get strong, then advance, be it endurance, size etc. Getting a base of stronger and how to lift will grow any goal down the line, also if you're doing SS off rehab etc, you know the simple lifts and can get better quicker.

I know these are semi (super) hot takes.

With a heavy KB pistol squats to 10 burpees and back would be brutal AF. Not sure if would match your goal but the idea popped in my sick head.

 

[JustFuckinaDude]

Big 3 of power lifting bench, squat, DL.

For what you are listing it seems pretty useful.

To copy SS I think a basic power lifting is a decent replacement (oh I know people will slap me for this) but get strong, then advance, be it endurance, size etc. Getting a base of stronger and how to lift will grow any goal down the line, also if you're doing SS off rehab etc, you know the simple lifts and can get better quicker.

I know these are semi (super) hot takes.

With a heavy KB pistol squats to 10 burpees and back would be brutal AF. Not sure if would match your goal but the idea popped in my sick head.

Haha my bad, I should’ve been more clear. I was aware of the powerlifting big three, I was trying to find some kind of parallel. I’ll run this routine for a few weeks and try to carve out some gym time to see what’s happened to my “core 5” (Squat, Bench, Pull Up, Overhead Press, Hang Clean (I prefer to HC over DL because T-Rex arms)) maybe after 2 months or so. With luck, I’ll be able to find a set of 32 kgs hanging around that are somewhat affordable.

My ultimate goal is strength-endurance, but that sounds brutal just thinking about it. I’ll throw it in my next workout and report back. Good looking out, man.

 

[Bassomatic]

For strength endurance as you called it id look into cross training and playing sports.

Honestly most fun i had plus some of most jack of all trades i was ever was just big lifts then playing my game (rugby) i feel over all probably better suited than when i trained for a sport tbh.

Granted as an old fart still don't look as good haha.

Best of luck and yes try what path your on.