Western Animation -

Trilby

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Barring budget differences, episode length, etc etc. I've been trying to pinpoint why we cant do animation this fluid anymore, or humor nearly as well timed as Tex Avery. We have all these formulas, books, computer programs, animation schools (that cost $50k to attend!), and yet the best that we often put out on TV is little more than animated KCGreen comics.
Blame executives and bean counters, they're the ones behind limiting this fun.
 

Steamboat_Bill

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Barring budget differences, episode length, etc etc. I've been trying to pinpoint why we cant do animation this fluid anymore, or humor nearly as well timed as Tex Avery. We have all these formulas, books, computer programs, animation schools (that cost $50k to attend!), and yet the best that we often put out on TV is little more than animated KCGreen comics.
Tex made theatrical cartoons. You can't do theatrical stuff on a TV budget.
 

Dark Emporer Dood

I exist
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Blame executives and bean counters, they're the ones behind limiting this fun.
How much control do you think they have over art styles? I ask in light of the mislabeled "cal arts" look going around (I just call it Jellybean style myself).

Tex made theatrical cartoons. You can't do theatrical stuff on a TV budget.
True, but looking at even cheap old stuff like Rocky and Bullwinkle I find the art more fun to look at. But I guess thats more subjective.
 
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Jewelsmakerguy

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Barring budget differences, episode length, etc etc. I've been trying to pinpoint why we cant do animation this fluid anymore, or humor nearly as well timed as Tex Avery. We have all these formulas, books, computer programs, animation schools (that cost $50k to attend!), and yet the best that we often put out on TV is little more than animated KCGreen comics.
Lots of reasons. Budget's one thing, but there's also things like people just rushing shit out to the bare minimum (as something like Green Eggs & Ham takes a lot of time and effort), studios working on more than one thing at a time, and more importantly, most of the people who animate these days don't seem to actually be inspired by the classic animators or take the lessons the learned to good use.

Inflation's also an issue. Back then, you could make a short easily for $50,000. Nowadays that barely covers the pre-production crew.
 

Dark Emporer Dood

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more importantly, most of the people who animate these days don't seem to actually be inspired by the classic animators or take the lessons the learned to good use.

Inflation's also an issue. Back then, you could make a short easily for $50,000. Nowadays that barely covers the pre-production crew.
There was a cartoonbrew article on that which pretty much confirms what you just said, older industry professionals mentioned students not knowing much about (and I guess not being taught about) older cartoons, unless if they're working on a reboot.

Wouldnt todays technology help keep costs down? You dont need to buy ink, cels, editing equipment, or cameras afaik.
 
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Technetium

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Am I right in assuming that the Looney Toons from the '40es to the '50es were single-handedly animated by the director? As in, the director was in charge of drawing all the individual character frames? Of course there was then a staff to physically animate the frames, there were colouring artists, background artists and writers. Because for example Chuck Jones' or Robert McKimson's style are unmistakable, and I remember seeing in some documentary ages ago a segment which was kind of implying what I'm saying.
Considering one toon was about 7 minutes long, with 24 frames per second (I'm probably wrong), and let's assume an average of 1 minute to draw each frame, that's about 170 hours of work per toon, basically a month's worth. Am I way off track here?

I'm trying to get an idea of exactly how many people were involved in the process back then.
 

MuuMuu Bunnylips

Your missiles can't touch me!
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https://mobile.twitter.com/charlyne_yi/status/1234362361986895872
https://archive.li/8F0Cl

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8ybzklpfg6/?igshid=ukjwof8u2ozj

So, Charlyne Yi, the voice of Ruby in Steven Universe and Chloe in We Bare Bears, is accusing Pat McHale and Justin Rubenstein, of Over the Garden Wall fame, of psychological abuse.
Well, I accuse her of being short and ugly. What's her point?
 

Trilby

Sorry, but not sorry!
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Am I right in assuming that the Looney Toons from the '40es to the '50es were single-handedly animated by the director? As in, the director was in charge of drawing all the individual character frames? Of course there was then a staff to physically animate the frames, there were colouring artists, background artists and writers. Because for example Chuck Jones' or Robert McKimson's style are unmistakable, and I remember seeing in some documentary ages ago a segment which was kind of implying what I'm saying.
Considering one toon was about 7 minutes long, with 24 frames per second (I'm probably wrong), and let's assume an average of 1 minute to draw each frame, that's about 170 hours of work per toon, basically a month's worth. Am I way off track here?

I'm trying to get an idea of exactly how many people were involved in the process back then.
The process seem to vary from studio to studio. In the case of WB, the directors seem to have more control over the look of the characters as they often did layout sketches based on the storyboards for each cartoon. Directors like Chuck were often known for doing this a lot with his films, as he wanted to get the tone and feel down to the very last frame. These character layout sketches would be used by the key animators when creating their keys and breakdowns and the assistants/inbetweeners finish the rest. Chuck was often said to be pretty demanding on what he wanted his men to do and it once cost Mark Kausler a job on a project of animating the Road Runner's legs on ice for a TV special in the late 70's.
 

Jewelsmakerguy

Domo Arigato
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There was a cartoonbrew article on that which pretty much confirms what you just said, older industry professionals mentioned students not knowing much about (and I guess not being taught about) older cartoons, unless if they're working on a reboot.

Wouldnt todays technology help keep costs down? You dont need to buy ink, cels, editing equipment, or cameras afaik.
Thing is, part of the rising costs is the economy itself. Things got more expensive over time in general. Canada for instance prices all it's shit pretty damn high, and it's why, outside of some WB projects or when someone gets Trigger or Sciance SARU to do something, Japan rarely gets anything that isn't an anime.

Yeah, it's certainly cheap to animate in this day and age, but only theoretically, remember- animation studios are huge money sinks and can close down as easily as they can be formed.
 

Private Pyle

I am...in a world...of shit.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/charlyne_yi/status/1234362361986895872
https://archive.li/8F0Cl

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8ybzklpfg6/?igshid=ukjwof8u2ozj

So, Charlyne Yi, the voice of Ruby in Steven Universe and Chloe in We Bare Bears, is accusing Pat McHale and Justin Rubenstein, of Over the Garden Wall fame, of psychological abuse.
Oh come on, I actually liked Over the Garden Wall! And some of those comments are creepier than what Charlyne was accusing the others of.
Is there any truth to this or is this just a whole puff of smoke?
 
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Jewelsmakerguy

Domo Arigato
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Am I right in assuming that the Looney Toons from the '40es to the '50es were single-handedly animated by the director? As in, the director was in charge of drawing all the individual character frames? Of course there was then a staff to physically animate the frames, there were colouring artists, background artists and writers. Because for example Chuck Jones' or Robert McKimson's style are unmistakable, and I remember seeing in some documentary ages ago a segment which was kind of implying what I'm saying.
Considering one toon was about 7 minutes long, with 24 frames per second (I'm probably wrong), and let's assume an average of 1 minute to draw each frame, that's about 170 hours of work per toon, basically a month's worth. Am I way off track here?

I'm trying to get an idea of exactly how many people were involved in the process back then.
If we're talking Wanrer Bros. and their cartoons, it was usually the director, a timing director and a small team of animators (usually 4 credited at a time. No idea if that was how many actually worked on any given short, since there was a lot of uncredited staffers working for them, including interestingly enough, Filmation founder Lou Scheimer on backgrounds). Most shorts varied the amount of drawings required depending on the director or sequence, but usually it was 2s with 1s used for particularly fast movements or effects.
 

Trilby

Sorry, but not sorry!
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If we're talking Wanrer Bros. and their cartoons, it was usually the director, a timing director and a small team of animators (usually 4 credited at a time. No idea if that was how many actually worked on any given short, since there was a lot of uncredited staffers working for them, including interestingly enough, Filmation founder Lou Scheimer on backgrounds). Most shorts varied the amount of drawings required depending on the director or sequence, but usually it was 2s with 1s used for particularly fast movements or effects.
In those days, studios generally never credited every single person who may have worked on a particular production. Animators high up in ladder like those that did keys often got credited and inbetweeners simply weren't. That changed by the 1980's often thanks to union rules and you started to see credits much more thorough than they used to be.
 
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Jewelsmakerguy

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In those days, studio generally never credited every single person who may have worked on a particular production. Animators high up in ladder like those that did keys often got credited and inbetweeners simply weren't. That changed by the 1980's often thanks to union rules and you started to see credits much more thorough than they used to be.
Not always. Marvel never even gave credit to their overseas subcontractors unless they were AKOM. And Disney never gave the animators at TMS, Wang or their other non in-house studios individual credits until the 90s. And even then only for Sunwoo and Toon City.

I honestly don't know why that happened considering the union changed the rules by the mid-1980s, so they easily could have done so.
 

Trilby

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Not always. Marvel never even gave credit to their overseas subcontractors unless they were AKOM. And Disney never gave the animators at TMS, Wang or their other non in-house studios individual credits until the 90s. And even then only for Sunwoo and Toon City.

I honestly don't know why that happened considering the union changed the rules by the mid-1980s, so they easily could have done so.
Outsource/overseas work pretty much falls out of sight in these cases, I've heard there's a rule some studios like Warner Bros. uses that explains why they wouldn't credit guys on recent stuff that's been animated even in closer location like Canada these days.
 

Jewelsmakerguy

Domo Arigato
kiwifarms.net
Outsource/overseas work pretty much falls out of sight in these cases, I've heard there's a rule some studios like Warner Bros. uses that explains why they wouldn't credit guys on recent stuff that's been animated even in closer location like Canada these days.
That's r.etarded. It's one thing if it's due to the time the credits run for, but an outright rule like that legitimately is r.etarded.

And the thing is, Japan pulls this shit too. And half the time I can't tell if it's because of credit restrictions, or just incompetence.
 
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AnOminous

Really?
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Retired Staff
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Outsource/overseas work pretty much falls out of sight in these cases, I've heard there's a rule some studios like Warner Bros. uses that explains why they wouldn't credit guys on recent stuff that's been animated even in closer location like Canada these days.
Where are the SJWs complaining about minority erasure when it's one of those rare examples where it actually fucking happens?
 

Dark Emporer Dood

I exist
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It's one thing if it's due to the time the credits run for, but an outright rule like that legitimately...

And the thing is, Japan pulls this shit too. And half the time I can't tell if it's because of credit restrictions, or just incompetence.
I assume that its a matter of branding, so that a bigger studio can have more spotlight than the other.

Its not that different from when you buy what you THINK is a Swedish car that ends up having a Japanese transmission, German electrics, an American rear axle, and British steel, but you wouldnt know any of that until you end up fixing it yourself. People fall in love with whatever badge is on the grille, not with what actually makes up the product.

In those days, studio generally never credited every single person who may have worked on a particular production.
From what I recall reading Mel Blanc was rarely credited himself until he asked for credit...and was forced to take a pay cut as a result. Then you had the Disney comic books where individual artists were rarely credited.
 
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