What if the Vikings never left America - Flourishing Injuns or greater Thule?

Penis Drager

Pronouns: Fee/Fi/Fo/Fum
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Let's say that, in the 11th century, the Norse actually did set up shop in North America rather than just taking short term visits. How would that have gone down?
There was certainly still a sort of technological gap between the 11th century Norse and the indigenous people of the region, but much smaller than there was in the late 15th-early 16th century when the Spanish came in and cleaned house.
Would trade of resources and ideas become a means of uplifting Amerindians into forming some semblance of civilization? Would the Vikings just sack their shit and establish dominance? Would there be a push-and-pull resulting in a fragile stalemate that would lead the Americas to look a lot more like early Europe? Who knows? But we could have a bit of fun shitposting about the possibilities...
 

Penis Drager

Pronouns: Fee/Fi/Fo/Fum
kiwifarms.net
Probably sacking and pillaging. Just look at the Viking invasions of Britain for an example.
Let's say that would happen (quite likely), how successful would it have been? Yes, the vikings understood basic armor that could stop obsidian arrows. So the Injuns would be at a huge disadvantage, not to mention the huge innovation that is metalworking. But could a combined force, in the most optimistic case where the Injun tribes united against a common foe, push back the Nords? There's also the fact that the few fallen Norse in any battle would have their weapons and armor stolen (unlikely to be recreated though, "leather armor" was basically a plate carrier for iron sheets and metalworking is a rather specific discovery) so the most elite of bunch would have Norse armaments.
I personally wouldn't doubt a sort of stalemate would be had. It would result in a Norse section of the land followed by a united Injun empire to the west. But that's just my dumb ass hypothesis and I'm retarded.
 

A Cardboard Box

kiwifarms.net
Let's say that would happen (quite likely), how successful would it have been? Yes, the vikings understood basic armor that could stop obsidian arrows. So the Injuns would be at a huge disadvantage, not to mention the huge innovation that is metalworking. But could a combined force, in the most optimistic case where the Injun tribes united against a common foe, push back the Nords? There's also the fact that the few fallen Norse in any battle would have their weapons and armor stolen (unlikely to be recreated though, "leather armor" was basically a plate carrier for iron sheets and metalworking is a rather specific discovery) so the most elite of bunch would have Norse armaments.
I personally wouldn't doubt a sort of stalemate would be had. It would result in a Norse section of the land followed by a united Injun empire to the west. But that's just my dumb ass hypothesis and I'm retarded.
I mean, considering every village they set up got fucking rolled by natives, it probably wouldn't have gone well.
 

Some Manajerk

kiwifarms.net
If they had set up permanent settlements(that managed to survive the little ice age cutting off contact with Europe) metal armor would have been relatively rare, aside from maybe a few people of higher status. Most of the fighting men would have been equivalent to the Fyrd in Europe, so cloth/leather gear, with the main protection coming from thier shields. The gap in technology wouldn't have been nearly as great as you'd think, especially not as great as it was when the spanish came along 400 years later. The survival of any viking colony would have been extremely dependent upon peaceful co-existence with the natives. Also a bit nitpicky, but obsidian was not really a thing in the areas the vikings settled, that was more south/central America.

Of course, if the colony did manage to survive it would have introduced European plagues to the continent much earlier than happened historically. If the Indians did survive these however, they would have had some immunity when the Europeans came around a second time.
 

Tetra

Ship enthusiast
True & Honest Fan
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When reading your idea all I can think about was this map


america map sweden.png
 

Penis Drager

Pronouns: Fee/Fi/Fo/Fum
kiwifarms.net
I mean, considering every village they set up got fucking rolled by natives, it probably wouldn't have gone well.
The fate of the villages they set up is debatable. Maybe it was because of the natives, there's also a weird story of a pregnant woman acting as a war hero and demanding property from another warhero which supposedly led them to abandon ship altogether but that's probably (ie. almost definitely) hearsay.
But they did have better weapons and armor than the natives. If they really did get "rolled," it was by numbers alone. Tactics is a questionable at best route as these were people that thrived on war with various groups with various tactics.

If they had set up permanent settlements(that managed to survive the little ice age cutting off contact with Europe) metal armor would have been relatively rare, aside from maybe a few people of higher status. Most of the fighting men would have been equivalent to the Fyrd in Europe, so cloth/leather gear, with the main protection coming from thier shields. The gap in technology wouldn't have been nearly as great as you'd think, especially not as great as it was when the spanish came along 400 years later. The survival of any viking colony would have been extremely dependent upon peaceful co-existence with the natives. Also a bit nitpicky, but obsidian was not really a thing in the areas the vikings settled, that was more south/central America.

Of course, if the colony did manage to survive it would have introduced European plagues to the continent much earlier than happened historically. If the Indians did survive these however, they would have had some immunity when the Europeans came around a second time.
They would have brought most of their armor with them, of course. If they found sources of iron (red clay, for instance) they would have used it. but these are people who are used to bringing their armaments with them.
 

Observerer

Talking to me is like clapping with one hand
kiwifarms.net
You would most likely end up like Iceland. You would speak like the guys from Iceland, you would eat the disgusting food like the guys on Iceland, and last but not least, you would be inbred like the guys from Iceland.
 

Overly Serious

kiwifarms.net
I think it would have substantially altered our present day because the Vikings were farmers. Whilst the stereotype is a pillaging marauder the viking people had farms and agriculture. Indeed, that's supposedly why "Greenland" was so inviting - it was billed as open, fertile land. By the time Europeans started sending colonists several native American tribes were already showing the beginnings of shifting to an agricultural basis. An established and successful farming civilisation, aware of agricultural techniques and the then-modern technologies , I think would have accelerated this dramatically. To the point that when European colonists started arriving they'd have encountered farming communities of native Americans. Farming communities might also have been less susceptible to the devastating plagues native American populations suffered shortly before the colonists arrivals. Farming communities would also have appreciated the concepts of land ownership in a way that the more free-roaming tribes did not. In short, I think European colonists would have not had such an easy time of it in a timeline where viking settlers had created an agricultural model for native Americans to adopt. The same would have been true if, say, the native Americans were just a couple of hundred years further on with adopting farming even if their technology was otherwise more or less the same.

Furthermore, whilst the Vikings aren't most known for cavalry, I think it's likely any colony in North America which maintained ties to its homeland would have tried to introduce horses at some point. Native Americans didn't have horses until the Spanish introduced them and even then they took quite a long time to spread Northwards. Imagine if instead of Native Americans being on foot when Europeans arrived, they had arrived to find native American cavalry. I don't know if the vikings would have led to an early adoption of the horse - I don't know enough about it but I figure it's a 50-50.

Last thing that occurs to me, and it's a big one, is if viking ocean-going ships were adopted by native Americans or even if just the possibility of long-distance trade led to further development of such technology just for the vikings and their allies. I agree that a Viking colony, even if you thought they would have the edge over native Americans militarily which I don't know either way, would not displace Native American tribes. So two outcomes follow from the development of improved ocean-going ships. One would be the Vikings themselves becoming a stronger power in Europe than they actually were and longer-lasting, going from raiders and sporadic settlers to real dominators or European seas. I wonder what a Galleon would look like if it had descended from Viking long-ships! Second outcome would be the possibility of Native Americans that adopted such ships becoming more of a seafaring people themselves. Imagine Native Americans arriving in North Africa in the 1400s for some serious Mohammedan on Geronimo action? Or good grief - imagine the Aztecs sailing up the coasts of Africa to raid and pillage or even visit Europe? At the very least, they'd make an incredible source of mercenary forces for whoever paid them. Though with the amount of gold and silver they had, they'd probably be successful traders for ages.

Why couldn't the vikings have stuck around in North America? It would be amazing!
 

Penis Drager

Pronouns: Fee/Fi/Fo/Fum
kiwifarms.net
I think it would have substantially altered our present day because the Vikings were farmers. Whilst the stereotype is a pillaging marauder the viking people had farms and agriculture. Indeed, that's supposedly why "Greenland" was so inviting - it was billed as open, fertile land. By the time Europeans started sending colonists several native American tribes were already showing the beginnings of shifting to an agricultural basis. An established and successful farming civilisation, aware of agricultural techniques and the then-modern technologies , I think would have accelerated this dramatically. To the point that when European colonists started arriving they'd have encountered farming communities of native Americans. Farming communities might also have been less susceptible to the devastating plagues native American populations suffered shortly before the colonists arrivals. Farming communities would also have appreciated the concepts of land ownership in a way that the more free-roaming tribes did not. In short, I think European colonists would have not had such an easy time of it in a timeline where viking settlers had created an agricultural model for native Americans to adopt. The same would have been true if, say, the native Americans were just a couple of hundred years further on with adopting farming even if their technology was otherwise more or less the same.

Furthermore, whilst the Vikings aren't most known for cavalry, I think it's likely any colony in North America which maintained ties to its homeland would have tried to introduce horses at some point. Native Americans didn't have horses until the Spanish introduced them and even then they took quite a long time to spread Northwards. Imagine if instead of Native Americans being on foot when Europeans arrived, they had arrived to find native American cavalry. I don't know if the vikings would have led to an early adoption of the horse - I don't know enough about it but I figure it's a 50-50.

Last thing that occurs to me, and it's a big one, is if viking ocean-going ships were adopted by native Americans or even if just the possibility of long-distance trade led to further development of such technology just for the vikings and their allies. I agree that a Viking colony, even if you thought they would have the edge over native Americans militarily which I don't know either way, would not displace Native American tribes. So two outcomes follow from the development of improved ocean-going ships. One would be the Vikings themselves becoming a stronger power in Europe than they actually were and longer-lasting, going from raiders and sporadic settlers to real dominators or European seas. I wonder what a Galleon would look like if it had descended from Viking long-ships! Second outcome would be the possibility of Native Americans that adopted such ships becoming more of a seafaring people themselves. Imagine Native Americans arriving in North Africa in the 1400s for some serious Mohammedan on Geronimo action? Or good grief - imagine the Aztecs sailing up the coasts of Africa to raid and pillage or even visit Europe? At the very least, they'd make an incredible source of mercenary forces for whoever paid them. Though with the amount of gold and silver they had, they'd probably be successful traders for ages.

Why couldn't the vikings have stuck around in North America? It would be amazing!
bruh im waaay too fucked up to read that shit... but I'll try when I'm at work and halfway sober.
 

Karl der Grosse

Big stink lines energy
True & Honest Fan
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I think quite a few Norse ships (and english ships, irish ships, and welsh ships) ended up blown off course by storms and made it to America. There are oral legends in Tennessee, for example, of men with stone skins (armor, I'm sure) and yellow hair who came in a house that floated on one of rivers. In the stories they were massacred when they fell asleep one night. There are also stories of mummies of white men in the same region, found during the first few decades of white exploration. I think the essence of those stories are true. I think that happened a few times, isolated ships making landfall in America and dying violently. It's relatively simple to go to northern North America, and back, if you go by a northern route, but it's considerably harder to sail back if you're starting anywhere else along the east coast.
 

Overly Serious

kiwifarms.net
I think quite a few Norse ships (and english ships, irish ships, and welsh ships) ended up blown off course by storms and made it to America. There are oral legends in Tennessee, for example, of men with stone skins (armor, I'm sure) and yellow hair who came in a house that floated on one of rivers. In the stories they were massacred when they fell asleep one night. There are also stories of mummies of white men in the same region, found during the first few decades of white exploration. I think the essence of those stories are true. I think that happened a few times, isolated ships making landfall in America and dying violently. It's relatively simple to go to northern North America, and back, if you go by a northern route, but it's considerably harder to sail back if you're starting anywhere else along the east coast.
I read, though I don't know where, that there were some Native Americans who spoke some Welsh.

Though possibly they just had something stuck in their throat.
 

Thumb Butler

Hand over the IPs, child.
kiwifarms.net
I think it would have substantially altered our present day because the Vikings were farmers. Whilst the stereotype is a pillaging marauder the viking people had farms and agriculture. Indeed, that's supposedly why "Greenland" was so inviting - it was billed as open, fertile land. By the time Europeans started sending colonists several native American tribes were already showing the beginnings of shifting to an agricultural basis. An established and successful farming civilisation, aware of agricultural techniques and the then-modern technologies , I think would have accelerated this dramatically. To the point that when European colonists started arriving they'd have encountered farming communities of native Americans. Farming communities might also have been less susceptible to the devastating plagues native American populations suffered shortly before the colonists arrivals. Farming communities would also have appreciated the concepts of land ownership in a way that the more free-roaming tribes did not. In short, I think European colonists would have not had such an easy time of it in a timeline where viking settlers had created an agricultural model for native Americans to adopt. The same would have been true if, say, the native Americans were just a couple of hundred years further on with adopting farming even if their technology was otherwise more or less the same.

Furthermore, whilst the Vikings aren't most known for cavalry, I think it's likely any colony in North America which maintained ties to its homeland would have tried to introduce horses at some point. Native Americans didn't have horses until the Spanish introduced them and even then they took quite a long time to spread Northwards. Imagine if instead of Native Americans being on foot when Europeans arrived, they had arrived to find native American cavalry. I don't know if the vikings would have led to an early adoption of the horse - I don't know enough about it but I figure it's a 50-50.

Last thing that occurs to me, and it's a big one, is if viking ocean-going ships were adopted by native Americans or even if just the possibility of long-distance trade led to further development of such technology just for the vikings and their allies. I agree that a Viking colony, even if you thought they would have the edge over native Americans militarily which I don't know either way, would not displace Native American tribes. So two outcomes follow from the development of improved ocean-going ships. One would be the Vikings themselves becoming a stronger power in Europe than they actually were and longer-lasting, going from raiders and sporadic settlers to real dominators or European seas. I wonder what a Galleon would look like if it had descended from Viking long-ships! Second outcome would be the possibility of Native Americans that adopted such ships becoming more of a seafaring people themselves. Imagine Native Americans arriving in North Africa in the 1400s for some serious Mohammedan on Geronimo action? Or good grief - imagine the Aztecs sailing up the coasts of Africa to raid and pillage or even visit Europe? At the very least, they'd make an incredible source of mercenary forces for whoever paid them. Though with the amount of gold and silver they had, they'd probably be successful traders for ages.

Why couldn't the vikings have stuck around in North America? It would be amazing!
I am this close to fire up Civilization V and see what happens.
 
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