What is one of your deeply held opinions and what would it take to change it? -

That anyone who claims to be a socialist/communist is either ignorant, dangerous, or both. Should not be trusted with any form of power, politically marginalized, and considered a direct threat to the freedom and prosperity of the people in their communities and in their nations.

My opinion would probably omly change after a long period in a re-education worker camp, learning how to be an effective and good member of the new society and a servant of the state.
 

Fagatron

ArchFedora
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Original claim was: "belief in the supernatural is necessary for our brains and society to function."
I will believe otherwise if you can show me a single godless society that functioned for any period longer then 200 years.
That is what I was answering. It's unfair, considering even today denying belief in the supernatural will get you murdered in most places across the globe and secularism is a relative newcomer in a modern world very different from the ancient theocracies but this can be answered.

While in modern history, the Taiping Rebellion, Boxer Rebellion, Communist Revolution, and the Cultural Revolution contributed significantly to the rise of irreligion and distrust of organized religion among the general populace; irreligion in its various forms, especially rationalism, secularism, and antitheism, has had a long history in China dating back millennia. The Zhou Dynasty Classic of Poetry contains several catechistic poems in the Decade of Dang questioning the authority or existence of Shangdi. Later philosophers such as Xun Zi, Fan Zhen, Han Fei, Zhang Zai, Wang Fuzhi also criticized the religious practices prevalent during their times. Buddhism flourished in China during the Southern and Northern Dynasties Period. It was during this period that Fan Zhen wrote Shen Mie Lun (Simplified Chinese 神灭论, Traditional Chinese 神滅論, "On the Annihilation of the Shen") in reaction to Buddhist concepts of body-soul dualism, samsara and karma. He wrote that the soul is merely an effect or function of the body, and that there is no soul without the body (i.e., after the destruction and death of the body).[15] Further, he considered that cause-and-effect relationships claimed to be evidence of karma were merely the result of coincidence and bias. For this, he was exiled by the Emperor.

Confucianism as a state-instituted philosophy has flourished in China since the Han Dynasty, and the opportunities it offered was another fundamental origin of atheism in China. While there were periods in which Taoism and Buddhism may have been officially promoted, the status of Confucianism in Chinese society has rarely been challenged during imperial times. Extensive study of the Confucian Classics was required to pass the Imperial Civil Service Examinations, and this was the major (and often sole) means by which one may achieve prominence in society. Confucianism places particular emphasis on humanistic and this-worldly social relations, rather than on an otherworldly soteriology.[16][17] This produced a cultural tendency that facilitated acceptance of modern forms of irreligion such as humanism, secularism, and atheism.

China is considered to be a nation with a long history of humanism, secularism, and this-worldly thought since the time of Confucius,[18][20] who stressed shisu (世俗 "being in the world"). Hu Shih stated in the 1920s that "China is a country without religion and the Chinese are a people who are not bound by religious superstitions."[21]

In the 19th century, after China's defeat in the First Opium War and in successive wars, the country succumbed to increasing domination by foreign imperialist powers. The Boxers (or the Yihetuan) considered Christian missionaries as promoting foreign influence in China and held deep anti-Christian views. Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant missionaries and church members were massacred.
TL;DR: The Gods have never meant a whole lot.

Historically, the official religion pre-Mejji restoration has been Buddhism. Specifically Zen Buddhism, which denies the supernatural exists.

Though pure land has made inroads in the last century, Zen still remains the chief school.

Also, you fail to detail that the Kami themselves are animistic rather than theistic; they're something the shrine visitor can touch like rocks or mirrors, they're not themselves perceived to be magical.

Theres also the cultural norm that doesn't see identifying with a religion as actually believing in it https://blog.gaijinpot.com/japan-religious-atheist-country/


Pre confucian, pre christian Korea:

View attachment 830089
I only was asked for two hundred years. Korean Shamanism was supplaced by Confucian-led lifestyles for most of Korean history which as highlighted in my above article does not have a place of respect for magic.


Post revolutionary france is not exactly a society where people didn't believe in god either. Even today the majority of french identify as christian rather than non religious (or muslim).
Do the French people since that time establish laws based on what supernatural agents tell them to do, or have the French republics enacted laws of explicit secularism?

Individual french people might hold supernatural beliefs, but their government and law since 1792 (with a very brief interlude of the Borbon restoration) has been and remains openly hostile to public expressions of supernatural belief. If you don't believe me, consider that religious clothing is banned in public in France today, and crucifixes, Stars of David etc have been barred from public erection for far longer.


Czech republic is less than 3 decades old in its current form.
I was asked about a society, the Czech people are older than three decades. The Czechia people, like the Roma, have a very long and colorful history of being oppressed and assailed by a range of organizations usually using a religious pretext for doing so. The Us vs Them mentality is very strong and deep, and the "Them" are usually explicitly defined by their supernatural beliefs.

You can trace their hostility to supernatural belief from the burning of John Huss, though I personally would start from 1620 (the year of the Battle of Bila Hora) which destroyed Czech Protestantism for good, but didn't replace it with anything else. (The Catholic Church attempted to convert the area, and failed miserably due to the centuries long bad blood owed from the Huss years).


Iceland had gods before it was christianized, but now the majority are christians.
Iceland wasn't Christianized until the 10th century, and even then there's regular writings from the Bishops of the time complaining the native people didn't really care for their beliefs.

Today, like in Japan, most Icelanders are actually "none" but retain nominal membership of the Church of Iceland because you have to opt out and it's more hassle than it's worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iceland




I tried and failed to find examples. Although there aren't *that* many societies with gods that had an unbroken functioning either. There aren't many experiments with godless societies either. After all, if your entire sample size has never considered trying it, you wouldn't know if that's the source of failure. For example, there has never been a society that vaccinated that functioned for a period longer than 200 years, but I don't think many would suggest that's a bad idea for society.
True, but this is where theism and the supernatural is uniquely dangerous. It might be hard to argue and reason with someone about political beliefs, but there is the potential for a reasoned discussion.

But when you're talking to someone who believes that their imaginary friend demands total submission to them or face hellfire? Yeah, it's the death of cohesion. We can't even say supernatural belief brings people together since even people within the same denomination call each other heretics or worse on a regular basis.

Godlessness is a relatively new idea and as such, the requirement of wanting a 200 years functioning society may be somewhat of a red herring.
It is, but the seeds are there. I'd like it if Mindlessobserver could show us a Theocracy/Religion led society today that was at least as advanced as Western Europe.
 
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Fagatron

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Post revolutionary France is your example of a successful godless society?
Please read my points above. I don't deny the Terror was brutal, but the French republics have been openly hostile to the encroachment of supernatural beliving factions since their inception and have laws explicitly ruling against them.

Bro. Japan? Do you not see any weeb shit? Japan is one of the most spiritual countries in the world.
Then you are aware that for most Japanese religion is a bit of quaint fun with dressing up (see above), and not something they actually believe is magic?

The Czech Republic? I mean, wut? Also it's only a few decades old.[/QUOTE]

The state itself is relatively young, but the people and the states that preceded it have themselves been highly irreligious. With how much shit the Catholics and Protestants threw at them for years who can blame them for thinking theists are assholes really?

I dont know shit about Iceland but it has a nordic cross on its flag so...
You mean the same way England has the cross of St George but half the country is "none" when it comes to religion?

I also love how you'll try to argue about something you admit yourself you "Don't know shit about".

Contrary to what you learned from the civilization games, confucianism was not a religion it was a political philosophy and served that role. Buddhism and traditional Chinese Faith's existed simultaneous to it.
Not being much of a gamer I had to google Civilization games, I had no idea what on earth you were talking about.

Again, see above.

Not what religion is. If you want to get psychological, it's the brains reality scaffold that anchors it in the now by orienting past and future. You should read some Jung and less fedora lords.
Seriously?

How many people obey speed limits on the highway? This is a strawman argument.
[/QUOTE]
 

Lemmingwise

Welcome home
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If you don't believe me, consider that religious clothing is banned in public in France today, and crucifixes, Stars of David etc have been barred from public erection for far longer.
"in public" means inside government schools and inside government buildings. It's fine to wear any such thing out in the streets.
 
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ProgKing of the North

^^^^FUCKTARD^^^^
kiwifarms.net
I can never tell if you are just a contrarian or if you really are prog-tarded.
It’s usually both but in this case, I’m dead serious. Let me reword it.

The government should not restrict individual liberty for the sake of societal cohesion.

Anyone who goes through the proper channels and becomes an American citizen is just as American as anybody else.
 

Vitoze

Autism Fo Am Byth
kiwifarms.net
Anyone who goes through the proper channels and becomes an American citizen is just as American as anybody else.
I'm fine with this as being an American means little to nothing anymore anyway. It's like a Costco Membership, your a member of an economic zone that has a border.

Come to think of it, the US is just an upscaled Costco. Cheap liquor, boomers everywhere, cheap food, and excess.
 
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V0dka

I'm drunk.
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That Michael Jackson is a pedophile. I'd be perfectly willing to accept it someone had proof, any proof. But all people keep showing me is photos where "He looks kinda creepy next to this kid" and "there's this one old book about boys having fun in a river from 1950". That's it? After all the police raids and going through his computers and surveillance on his ranch for year and a 300 page FBI report, thats all you got? Apparently the jurors agreed with me as well. But some people will never be convinced, because thats the image you were fed your whole lives.

Meanwhile someone like Jimmy Saville, who was knighted by the Queen and buried as a famous childrens entertainer. Everything came out after he died. His gravesite was destroyed. By his own family. If anything, you should be looking at the people you least suspect, the ones celebrated as heroes to children, considered above reproach. But I know, I know, you really don't want to know do you.

fd902c61c28360048523fa5f7d575fcc.jpg


2517c7f53ddde0a7e2e2b258a722c9bb.jpg
 

Lemmingwise

Welcome home
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That Michael Jackson is a pedophile. I'd be perfectly willing to accept it someone had proof, any proof. But all people keep showing me is photos where "He looks kinda creepy next to this kid" and "there's this one old book about boys having fun in a river from 1950". That's it? After all the police raids and going through his computers and surveillance on his ranch for year and a 300 page FBI report, thats all you got? Apparently the jurors agreed with me as well. But some people will never be convinced, because thats the image you were fed your whole lives.

Meanwhile someone like Jimmy Saville, who was knighted by the Queen and buried as a famous childrens entertainer. Everything came out after he died. His gravesite was destroyed. By his own family. If anything, you should be looking at the people you least suspect, the ones celebrated as heroes to children, considered above reproach. But I know, I know, you really don't want to know do you.

View attachment 830839

View attachment 830840


Poor Heather O Rourke. Imagine dying from septic shock from a dildo in your anus at 12 years old, inserted by the men who made you famous.
 

Sprig of Parsley

Damnation dignified
kiwifarms.net
Feminism is not an aberration brought about by changes in society. It is an effective politicization of the female psyche and is thus a natural position for women to gravitate to in part or in full regardless of whether they openly identify as feminist or not. This is also why "male feminists" are almost universally men with predatory intent or other ulterior motives - because the idea of a "male feminist" is akin to the idea of a "black Klansman". Only severe self-hate or the ability to wear the mask long enough to get close to prey can facilitate that level of seeming absurdity and contradiction.

I can't think of anything that would dissuade me from these viewpoints. Most importantly, I've seen so few full exceptions to these observations that I don't think anything exists that COULD dissuade me.
 

Exigent Circumcisions

Greasy trotters on your bodice
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Feminism is not an aberration brought about by changes in society. It is an effective politicization of the female psyche and is thus a natural position for women to gravitate to in part or in full regardless of whether they openly identify as feminist or not. This is also why "male feminists" are almost universally men with predatory intent or other ulterior motives - because the idea of a "male feminist" is akin to the idea of a "black Klansman". Only severe self-hate or the ability to wear the mask long enough to get close to prey can facilitate that level of seeming absurdity and contradiction.

I can't think of anything that would dissuade me from these viewpoints. Most importantly, I've seen so few full exceptions to these observations that I don't think anything exists that COULD dissuade me.
Lol calm down.
 

JambledUpWords

Gorl who loves orange chicken
True & Honest Fan
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Cookies and cream ice cream is an overrated flavor

My mind can only be changed if I come across a good version of this​

Humans were never meant to be vegan

Show me a human society that has lasted more than 200 years on a vegan diet​

95% of trans people do not pass well

Nothing will change that​
 

Sīn the Moon Daddy

T-808
kiwifarms.net
Feminism is not an aberration brought about by changes in society. It is an effective politicization of the female psyche and is thus a natural position for women to gravitate to in part or in full regardless of whether they openly identify as feminist or not. This is also why "male feminists" are almost universally men with predatory intent or other ulterior motives - because the idea of a "male feminist" is akin to the idea of a "black Klansman". Only severe self-hate or the ability to wear the mask long enough to get close to prey can facilitate that level of seeming absurdity and contradiction.

I can't think of anything that would dissuade me from these viewpoints. Most importantly, I've seen so few full exceptions to these observations that I don't think anything exists that COULD dissuade me.
The correlation between calling yourself a male feminist and being a predator are why I resisted the label. Plus an old man named John told me it would be easier for me if I just kept it in my pants and that a little restraint would pay off in the end.

Of course I said that I wouldn't mind dating a few beautiful women along the way, but old John said that's how he knew that I was sane.
 
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verissimus

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Anyone that says and believes the US constitution is a "living breathing document" that [magically] "changes with the times" is an anti-democratic elitist at best. The point of having a written constitution (emphasis on "written") is to try ans spell out how the government is supposed to be organized, how it should conduct itself in general, what its powers are and aren't, how changes can be made to constitution, and at least list the civil rights the people have (can also list other rights like the right to bear arms but that isn't particularly necessary if the government doesn't have the power to confiscate people's weapons on a whim) if not their unalienable rights too.
 
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