What is one of your deeply held opinions and what would it take to change it? -

Reform justice is the best model of justice and should form the basis of the penal system. Punitive and retributive justice are the result of animal instincts trying to foster prosocial behavior, but we can use our forebrains to devise better incentive schemes than "If a man steals, he shall have a hand cut off" or "If a man steals, he shall be flayed to death".
To change my mind, you would have to produce solid evidence that punitive or retributive justice schemes produce a healthier society were people are more prosocial, instead of creating a perverse incentive for antisocial behavior.
I used to think that way, but have more recently considered that the primary purpose of a justice system is to convince the populace that justice has been done, so they don't take it into their own hands, as this rapidly leads to escalations of violence and revenge. If all that mattered to the justice system were the perpetrators of crime then a reform based approach would be best, like you say. However I think really the main purpose of the justice system is to keep our animal behavior at bay. Even if we don't all like the outcome of every trial, at least we're not usually going after the criminals ourselves when dissatisfied with the penalty.

I don't have anything like the data needed to prove this idea though, so I don't think I'll change your mind here. Just saying I used to think very similarly, but I think at the time I wasn't looking at an important piece of the picture.
 

Senior Lexmechanic

See you in a couple months, maybe.
kiwifarms.net
I used to think that way, but have more recently considered that the primary purpose of a justice system is to convince the populace that justice has been done, so they don't take it into their own hands, as this rapidly leads to escalations of violence and revenge. If all that mattered to the justice system were the perpetrators of crime then a reform based approach would be best, like you say. However I think really the main purpose of the justice system is to keep our animal behavior at bay. Even if we don't all like the outcome of every trial, at least we're not usually going after the criminals ourselves when dissatisfied with the penalty.

I don't have anything like the data needed to prove this idea though, so I don't think I'll change your mind here. Just saying I used to think very similarly, but I think at the time I wasn't looking at an important piece of the picture.
I understand the importance of justice-as-social-rage-outlet, but I personally believe that:
1. A reform-based approach to justice can be implemented that's seen as reasonable by the average person and still serve as an outlet for their anger (Because, to be honest, there's always going to be people who even if God himself came down and said "This person should be punished X for their crimes", would punish x+1 because of their animal instincts) and
2. The punitive justice system, at least certainly as it exists in America, is an unconscionable atrocity that objectively lowers the quality of life for everyone across the board. For-profit prisons, I think, are something everyone can agree have no reason to exist.
 

Sofonda Cox

Tired.
True & Honest Fan
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Procreation is inherently immoral, due to creating suffering and death for another person who cannot consent.

In order for this change, there would need to be an elimination of evolution itself (which requires much suffering), elimination of a percentage of mundane suffering, a loving "god", or a definitive way to measure suffering and pleasure that proved there was more pleasure to the vast majority of lives than suffering.
 

HeyYou

seriousposter
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Anyone can be an American. Someone who was naturalized yesterday is now just as American as somebody who can trace their lineage back to the Mayflower.
What about British, or French? Your point doesn't seem to apply to either side of the issue because even immigrants complain in quite a few European countries that they feel no attachment or compulsion to learn about the history of the current country they live in. They don't even consider themselves British in the same way British people who've lived there for hundreds of years consider themselves British. How do you reconcile those two beliefs?
 

nonvir_1984

Well, that's all, folks
kiwifarms.net
Procreation is inherently immoral, due to creating suffering and death for another person who cannot consent.

In order for this change, there would need to be an elimination of evolution itself (which requires much suffering), elimination of a percentage of mundane suffering, a loving "god", or a definitive way to measure suffering and pleasure that proved there was more pleasure to the vast majority of lives than suffering.
And remove the anxiety and fear of death so many experience.
 
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PL 001

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States that have enacted the death with dignity act should allow clinically depressed people to opt for euthanasia in addition to terminally ill people.

If someone has made plans to end their life, and bent on carrying it out, they'll find a way to do it. Why not allow them a way to go through it with as little pain or chance of fucking it up as possible? A gunshot doesn't always work, and can leave you alive but disfigured or brain damaged. Pills and slitting wrists is an incredibly painful and drawn out death that can last hours. Running into traffic will traumatize the poor person who ends up running them over, and that's a cruel thing to do. You get the idea. Give people a way to put their affairs in order and leave with some degree of dignity and peace.

As for changing my mind, I'm open to opposing arguments.
 
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ProgKing of the North

^^^^FUCKTARD^^^^
kiwifarms.net
What about British, or French? Your point doesn't seem to apply to either side of the issue because even immigrants complain in quite a few European countries that they feel no attachment or compulsion to learn about the history of the current country they live in. They don't even consider themselves British in the same way British people who've lived there for hundreds of years consider themselves British. How do you reconcile those two beliefs?
Honestly, I don't really give a shit about Britain or France. They can have whatever (likely dumb, seeing as they are, in fact, Britain and France) standard they want. But for me an important point of America is that all citizens are equal and that you aren't automatically a "better American" just because you were born here or have the right ancestors. We don't have aristocracy.

As for history, it's both good and fascinating to know, but not knowing much more than the basics isn't going to keep you from living your day-to-day life or being a productive citizen.
 
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