Why didn't Africans ever establish any society on par with the ones in Eurasia? -

biozeminadae1

kiwifarms.net
Problem with Siberia is that until the 19th century, it was hard to get to, and is still hard to get to in this day. Things may get better once the polar ice recedes, but that's still a long ways off, and logistics will still be rather problematic in Siberia (long distances to Russian consumer/production base).

Plus the fact that it's a massive stretch of cold, dark, untamed, mosquito-ladden forests and wetlands (the area is very poorly drained), and you can see why colonization is limited- there just weren't enough people to throw at it until the forests were cleared, the stumps pulled, and the swamps drained (excess population was better suited towards colonization projects closer to the core territories)- same thing with the Canadian boreal belt- there are pockets of fertile lands, but the seasons are just too brutal for most people to want to have a go at it.

Today, Canadian, Russian, and Chinese demographics today are no longer conductive towards any massive colonization efforts, and environmental movements would likely attempt to restrict any further development as well. IMO the most promising use of these lands would be as grazing grounds for cattle, rather than for intensive agriculture.

I guess one of the ironies would be that these forests were once mostly steppelands, until the megafauna were hunted to extinction.
Yeah, the Deep South was also and in fact still is, a swamp land with mosquitos. Why did Americans colonize it successfully? Because they didn't have a ruling class that absolutely hated the people it was supposed to rule(lead) and they didn't have communism.

China has a huge population, although it's aging. Conquering Siberia from the Russians wouldn't be difficult for them. I don't see any environmentalists doing something in China or Russia.
 

jje100010001

kiwifarms.net
Yeah, the Deep South was also and in fact still is, a swamp land with mosquitos. Why did Americans colonize it successfully? Because they didn't have a ruling class that absolutely hated the people it was supposed to rule(lead) and they didn't have communism.

China has a huge population, although it's aging. Conquering Siberia from the Russians wouldn't be difficult for them. I don't see any environmentalists doing something in China or Russia.
The thing about the Deep South is that it has far better weather + the Mississippi which basically allows transportation through the middle of the continent without any real infrastructure.

IMO invading Russia opens way too many cans of worms, especially if Mongolia + the ‘Stans exist as softer targets. Plus the Chinese can anyways just buy out African lands from under its inhabitants’ noses and just import its own citizens to run the farms, which it currently is keen on doing.

Siberia is too far off in the future to be a productive settleable territory for any sort of projected needs.
 
Kinda just my own reply but also a criticism talking about how Asians and Whites somehow work harder than Africans and Latinos. For me I see the Industrial world as it's own think and is spread from Siberia to the Island of Japan where the Japanese government was able to make it's people utilize it. China was highly conservative and over populated and prevent the spread of industrialism into Asia. Africa is a desolate but full of civilizational history on it's frontiers, Just nothing significant like in Europe or Asia.

I hate this point White Supremacist make becuase they want to controll me to increase the population of white people and I spit in that efforts face.
It seems you don't like White Supremacist dogma. Japanese had a hard working and industrious culture dating back to the Heian period, if not before. They might not have had factories from the industrial revolution, but they still were organized and investment-in-future driven. The observation that Europeans are some how better for being Europeans and not for putting in more hours is simply ridiculous. Not starving to death is obviously not just a European thing considering that most other people groups out side of Africa manage it. It's really revolves around something that Africans lack. It really doesn't matter the cause because it could be any number of things such as it being too hot in Africa for Africans to expend the heat producing brain power to realise that planning for one's future and putting in the extra hours now is well worth the time spent. Really we could get quite silly with all the possibilities. Maybe it's melanin magic or low IQs or lack of interest or depression or subconscious suicidality or extreme narcissism that compels them to believe that they shouldn't have to lift a finger for their own survival. It really doesn't matter and it would be too expensive and unprofitable to do the science needed to find the correct answer. To the lay observer Africans are just lazy, where ever they may be found.
 

Cat Phuckers

Critically acclaimed "far right troll"
kiwifarms.net
Just a foreword: I am more familiar with Southern Africa, West Africa, and the West African diaspora than any other Black regions. I am not very aware of East or Central African politics, and therefore cannot give examples of civilizations that independently met Western standards in those regions if any do exist.

I'd say a couple of nations did get somewhat close, but only after independence so idk if that counts. Nigeria, Liberia, Haiti, and Ghana were all quite nice countries from what I can tell when they first gained independence, with Ghana continuing to be very stable up until even now, and the others having a conflict/coup every decade or so. In certain regards and at certain times, they had Western-adjacent systems and economies, but are not now nor have they ever been Western. Part of the reason these two nations have had relative success is because there was international agreement on the legitimacy of their sovereignty, and the West was excited to trade with these nations, fund their political, social, and economic ventures, and do business with them.

A good example of a nation run by Black Africans that initially had a lot of success is Haiti. The West African inhabitants of Haiti murdered the French (many of whom were the strongest advocates for Black rule in Haiti) in a horrifying antiwhite genocide that has since been forgotten by many. Despite this, Haiti was accepted by European nations and America and had a long period of success and maintained systems of economy and government that were undeniably Western up until later on. A good example of what happens when a fledgling African nation gets on the Western worlds' bad side is Zimbabwe. I hate Zimbabwe's current government, yet I believe that if it weren't for sanctions, that the Zimbabwean people would have a society far better than they do now. I would never advocate for their sanctions being lifted because I don't feel the people of Zimbabwe deserve it, but I am using Zimbabwe to prove that success in an all-Black nation seems partly contingent on whether the White man gives the people gibz, recognizes the nations as legitimate, and creates vague guidelines to enforce Western values from afar.

The only example of a Western nation run by Black Africans I am aware of would be Liberia. American Mulatto descendants of free slaves, later mixed with West Africans, darker African-Americans who arrived in a second exodus to Liberia, Afro-Caribbeans, Sierra Leonean Kriol, and a fuckton of other African diaspora groups that are never mentioned, are the main ethnic groups that comprise the ethnic conglomerate known as the Americo-Liberians. I believe that Liberia was in touch with Western ideals because it was founded by people who were half-White, had Western educations, were accepted by the Western world as the rightful inheritors of a legitimate nation, were intimately familiar with the workings of American society. Liberia's legacy was upheld for about 150 years by peoples who became less and less White as time went on, but always had significant White admixture and often had been educated in American Universities. This nation was not perfectly Western, however, and the prevalence of ritual murders, slavery well into the 1900s, corruption, and other degenerate behaviors are evidence of that. As for nations that didn't meet the Western standard of society, I'd say that it is partly because the people of Sub-Saharan Africa are just incapable without Western assistance and are not cognitively or morally anything like Western peoples. Post-coup Liberia is a good example of this. Essentially, the Americo-Liberians promised to grant equal treatment to the indigenous Liberians, and did grant them many rights, but were afraid (and rightfully so) that indigenous Liberian rulers would not act according to the standards of the Americo-Liberians, who only made up 5% of the nation's population at their height and were only relevant to Liberian politicians because they were the only people allowed to vote, run for office, and dictate policy. While not giving indigenous Liberians the right to wield political power, Presidents William Tolbert and William Tubman paved the way to equality by refurbishing infrastructure, granting many Americo-Liberians suffrage and the ability to run for office (only if they converted to Christianity, learned English, and became Westernized to the fullest extent a fully-Black jungle savage could), creating jobs, stamping out discriminatory business practices, instituting a hut tax to encourage indigenous Liberians to move into more developed areas, and much more. Eventually, President Tolbert appeared to have made a mistake, and details are scare, but this is how it appears to have gone. Tolbert and his party members introduced a bill to increase the price of rice substantially, the reason for this being to increase the wages of farmers and encourage them to keep their jobs instead of moving to the cities. Although it was never passed, many Liberians feared that they would be unable to eat, and that the President's move was motivated by greed because he had several rice farms and was therefore seen as attempting to increase profits. There were protests across Liberia, and they were peaceful until a gang of "backstreet boys" (low-class thugs) joined and the protest turned into a riot. A degenerate rapist Krahn supremacist named Samuel Doe and his posse took advantage of the chaos, viciously murdered President Tolbert and his cabinet (rest in peace), took over the country, and ruled with an iron fist until another gang of indigenous Liberians led by Prince Johnson invaded the Executive Mansion, cut Doe's ear off, and Johnson ate his flesh as his crew beat Doe to death on camera (there's footage of this online, and it's quite nasty). After this, a slightly less awful President, Charles Taylor came to power, but was eventually driven out of the nation during the 2003 civil war as the violence ended in Liberia and moved into neighboring Sierra Leone. After a legitimate government was restored through a short transitional government, an era of peace and stability was initiated by none other than Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, who surprise surprise, had a White grandmother and a very Western uprising. Do you see the pattern now? Now former football star George Weah is the current President of Liberia, is perhaps the only fully-indigenous President to have not made a complete mockery of the people of Liberia. What's remarkable and unique about President Weah is that he, compared to all other indigenous Presidents, has so far been without significant scandal during his, apart from him advocating for violence against a political opponent, the allowance of dual citizenship, and the removal of the controversial "Negroes or persons of Negro descent" citizenship clause, slamming it as "racist".

You have to have a specific set of ideals to create Western civilization, and I'd say that most non-Western peoples by and large have different ideals and seem to be incapable of harboring Western ideals. I believe these ideals to be partly environmental, but also significantly genetic. Furthermore, I would even go so far as to say that most non-Western peoples, Black Africans included, don't actually want Western civilization. They want all of the benefits that come with living in a Western nation, but more often than not (with a few notable exceptions), they abhor the systems and ideals that are prerequisites for Western civilization. It's like wanting to have a lot of water on hand but not wanting to build a well, or wanting to have a steady income and a decent wage but refusing to work. The White or yellow man can build the well for you and give you a job with a decent income, but you have to let the White man partly take control of your assets, which Africans do not want but the leaders of most African nations have accepted and are now becoming very Westernized (Ghana being the most notable nation to fully embrace Westernization, practically giving away citizenship to African-Americans and other diasporans so their Western educations can be put to use in building the country.

TL;DR Race is real and Black people aren't Western or Asian so they cannot have Western or Asian civilization without enforcement of Western ideals against the will of the people, a steady flow of Western financial aid, or Western leadership.

And speaking of different civilizations/countries and how they appeal to different groups...

OBLIGATORY REPATRIATION SHILLING
Many African diasporans in the West find themselves uncomfortable living in a society that isn't of their design and being surrounded by people who don't behave like they do, and who aren't them. They may not understand these feelings until they realize that this is because they are trapped in Western civilization, which was made to suit Western morality and needs and cater to White people, the rightful inheritors of Western civilization. If you're an exceptional African-American or other diasporan of West African descent who wants a sun-kissed Ghanaian kween instead of having to dodge baby-trapping ratchet sheboon hoes in the hood (lol), hates stereotypical niggers and want to be surrounded by a more refined people, is interested in discovering your roots, or wants to build a paradise in your ancestral homeland, and you're reading this (I know there are some Black Kiwis out there), you can get away from the trashy niggers you've undoubtedly realized you're surrounded by and start anew in a country whose inhabitants will accept you as one of them and where you can contribute far more than in any other place. Reminder that money goes way farther in West Africa and a poor African-American is a rich West African. You may find that you have far more in common with West Africans than your fellow Black diasporans, as has happened to many who have returned to their home. Ghana is definitely the best choice because it is a well-developed nation that has launched a program called Year of the Return specifically to encourage repatriation and is offering a lot of incentives to those who move there, but there are other nations with decent accommodation for diasporans. Just make sure to research Ghana, the Gambia, Senegal, and other exceptional West African nations before you actually make the move.
 
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Cat Phuckers

Critically acclaimed "far right troll"
kiwifarms.net
Kinda just my own reply but also a criticism talking about how Asians and Whites somehow work harder than Africans and Latinos. For me I see the Industrial world as it's own think and is spread from Siberia to the Island of Japan where the Japanese government was able to make it's people utilize it. China was highly conservative and over populated and prevent the spread of industrialism into Asia. Africa is a desolate but full of civilizational history on it's frontiers, Just nothing significant like in Europe or Asia.

I hate this point White Supremacist make becuase they want to controll me to increase the population of white people and I spit in that efforts face.
Why don't you want the White population to increase? What's so sinister about that? Are you just an antiwhite who wants to see the population stagnate or even decrease as the rest of the world slowly overtakes us and the Western world is erased (which is what's happening now)? Also it's not about what group is hard-working, it's about the fact that we're not the same and cannot coexist in the same civilization. The motivations of people like me, who you slander as "White supremacists" are as simple as protecting our own people from being victimized and prioritizing our wellbeing instead of constantly harming ourselves to appease antiwhites for crimes we've never committed. Asking to be treated with dignity does not in any way necessitate the victimization of any other groups. If the idea of a happy White guilt-free Western world makes you feel uncomfortable, then you are necessarily antiwhite and shouldn't be taken seriously because there is no legitimate justification for antiwhiteism.
 
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CapricornusRex

kiwifarms.net
TL;DR Race is real and Black people aren't Western or Asian so they cannot have Western or Asian civilization without enforcement of Western ideals against the will of the people, a steady flow of Western financial aid, or Western leadership.

Where are your paragraphs? This would be worth reading if you used them.



On topic. It's hard to really lump ALL of Sub-Saharan Africans together, as many of the nations mentioned here aren't really Sub-Saharan. Mali, Songhai and Ethiopia are Sahara adjacent, with much of Mali and Songhai being IN the Sahara Desert. You effectively have entirely different worlds when comparing West Africa, NW Africa, East Africa, Central Africa, SW Africa, S. Africa. Etc. etc. etc.. Ethiopia has more in common with Egypt and Nubia than they do other Sub-Saharan Africa due to proximity and their contact with the Romans and Arab world.

Even when discussing North Africa the Egyptians viewed themselves as an entirely different shade than the Carthaginians and other NW African people as the Egyptians painted themselves darker than them (Egyptians dark brown, Carthaginians light, Romans lighter. I believe there are pictures that show Nubians as basically pitch black.).

One thing to note about most of those Northern African empires such as Mali, Songhai, Ethiopia, who had SS African complexions, they also had Islam and Christianity to be the backbone of their societies. So now you have to ask if religion played a prominent role in the success of those three nations. Then look at North Africa.. who were successful and how faithful were they? We know the Egyptians were very very religious, and so little is known about Carthage it's hard to determine just how much faith and worship mattered to them. How about the Berbers pre-Rome?

Ethiopia is probably the greatest "What if" story of Africa that we have a full history of. What happens to Ethiopia if the communists never fuck the country up?

PS. Fuck jiggers. If you don't know what they are, don't look it up because it might make you sick. Damn things make children's feet look like hooves from the damage they do.
 

Syaoran Li

White Trash Weeaboo
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
To contribute something tangible, I've thought on this topic sometimes and I've tried to come up with non-genetic factors such as heat or domestication or disease. But each of these elements is present in areas of the world that did 'make it'. There are plenty of impressive ancient civilizations occupying the blistering tropics that have as many or few domesticated animals as SS-Africa and are also rife with mosquitoes and such. It never stopped them

SS-Africans are the oldest peoples. SS Africa has as many resources as every other continent. All things being equal they should have industrialized first. They did not. Perhaps it is precisely because the distant ancestors of the rest of us mongrelized with Neanderthals and other close relatives that they came out ahead of the purer SS-Africans. Hybrid Vigour is a thing, after all.

As others have pointed out, the bulk of Africa's best resources are further inland and the interior regions of Sub-Saharan Africa are a very harsh region that at best can only support small tribes and clans without industrial technology.

Most of the more advanced kingdoms and city-states in Africa were on relatively milder terrain and almost always along coasts and the major trade routes.
 

furūtsu

Quality Winx Content Appreciator
kiwifarms.net
Just a foreword: I am more familiar with Southern Africa, West Africa, and the West African diaspora than any other Black regions. I am not very aware of East or Central African politics, and therefore cannot give examples of civilizations that independently met Western standards in those regions if any do exist.

I'd say a couple of nations did get somewhat close, but only after independence so idk if that counts. Nigeria, Liberia, Haiti, and Ghana were all quite nice countries from what I can tell when they first gained independence, with Ghana continuing to be very stable up until even now, and the others having a conflict/coup every decade or so. In certain regards and at certain times, they had Western-adjacent systems and economies, but are not now nor have they ever been Western. Part of the reason these two nations have had relative success is because there was international agreement on the legitimacy of their sovereignty, and the West was excited to trade with these nations, fund their political, social, and economic ventures, and do business with them.
A good example of a nation run by Black Africans that initially had a lot of success is Haiti. The West African inhabitants of Haiti murdered the French (many of whom were the strongest advocates for Black rule in Haiti) in a horrifying antiwhite genocide that has since been forgotten by many. Despite this, Haiti was accepted by European nations and America and had a long period of success and maintained systems of economy and government that were undeniably Western up until later on. A good example of what happens when a fledgling African nation gets on the Western worlds' bad side is Zimbabwe. I hate Zimbabwe's current government, yet I believe that if it weren't for sanctions, that the Zimbabwean people would have a society far better than they do now. I would never advocate for their sanctions being lifted because I don't feel the people of Zimbabwe deserve it, but I am using Zimbabwe to prove that success in an all-Black nation seems partly contingent on whether the White man gives the people gibz, recognizes the nations as legitimate, and creates vague guidelines to enforce Western values from afar.
The only example of a Western nation run by Black Africans I am aware of would be Liberia. American Mulatto descendants of free slaves, later mixed with West Africans, darker African-Americans who arrived in a second exodus to Liberia, Afro-Caribbeans, Sierra Leonean Kriol, and a fuckton of other African diaspora groups that are never mentioned, are the main ethnic groups that comprise the ethnic conglomerate known as the Americo-Liberians. I believe that Liberia was in touch with Western ideals because it was founded by people who were half-White, had Western educations, were accepted by the Western world as the rightful inheritors of a legitimate nation, were intimately familiar with the workings of American society. Liberia's legacy was upheld for about 150 years by peoples who became less and less White as time went on, but always had significant White admixture and often had been educated in American Universities. This nation was not perfectly Western, however, and the prevalence of ritual murders, slavery well into the 1900s, corruption, and other degenerate behaviors are evidence of that. As for nations that didn't meet the Western standard of society, I'd say that it is partly because the people of Sub-Saharan Africa are just incapable without Western assistance and are not cognitively or morally anything like Western peoples. Post-coup Liberia is a good example of this. Essentially, the Americo-Liberians promised to grant equal treatment to the indigenous Liberians, and did grant them many rights, but were afraid (and rightfully so) that indigenous Liberian rulers would not act according to the standards of the Americo-Liberians, who only made up 5% of the nation's population at their height and were only relevant to Liberian politicians because they were the only people allowed to vote, run for office, and dictate policy. While not giving indigenous Liberians the right to wield political power, Presidents William Tolbert and William Tubman paved the way to equality by refurbishing infrastructure, granting many Americo-Liberians suffrage and the ability to run for office (only if they converted to Christianity, learned English, and became Westernized to the fullest extent a fully-Black jungle savage could), creating jobs, stamping out discriminatory business practices, instituting a hut tax to encourage indigenous Liberians to move into more developed areas, and much more. Eventually, President Tolbert appeared to have made a mistake, and details are scare, but this is how it appears to have gone. Tolbert and his party members introduced a bill to increase the price of rice substantially, the reason for this being to increase the wages of farmers and encourage them to keep their jobs instead of moving to the cities. Although it was never passed, many Liberians feared that they would be unable to eat, and that the President's move was motivated by greed because he had several rice farms and was therefore seen as attempting to increase profits. There were protests across Liberia, and they were peaceful until a gang of "backstreet boys" (low-class thugs) joined and the protest turned into a riot. A degenerate rapist Krahn supremacist named Samuel Doe and his posse took advantage of the chaos, viciously murdered President Tolbert and his cabinet (rest in peace), took over the country, and ruled with an iron fist until another gang of indigenous Liberians led by Prince Johnson invaded the Executive Mansion, cut Doe's ear off, and Johnson ate his flesh as his crew beat Doe to death on camera (there's footage of this online, and it's quite nasty). After this, a slightly less awful President, Charles Taylor came to power, but was eventually driven out of the nation during the 2003 civil war as the violence ended in Liberia and moved into neighboring Sierra Leone. After a legitimate government was restored through a short transitional government, an era of peace and stability was initiated by none other than Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, who surprise surprise, had a White grandmother and a very Western uprising. Do you see the pattern now? Now former football star George Weah is the current President of Liberia, is perhaps the only fully-indigenous President to have not made a complete mockery of the people of Liberia. What's remarkable and unique about President Weah is that he, compared to all other indigenous Presidents, has so far been without significant scandal during his, apart from him advocating for violence against a political opponent, the allowance of dual citizenship, and the removal of the controversial "Negroes or persons of Negro descent" citizenship clause, slamming it as "racist".
You have to have a specific set of ideals to create Western civilization, and I'd say that most non-Western peoples by and large have different ideals and seem to be incapable of harboring Western ideals. I believe these ideals to be partly environmental, but also significantly genetic. Furthermore, I would even go so far as to say that most non-Western peoples, Black Africans included, don't actually want Western civilization. They want all of the benefits that come with living in a Western nation, but more often than not (with a few notable exceptions), they abhor the systems and ideals that are prerequisites for Western civilization. It's like wanting to have a lot of water on hand but not wanting to build a well, or wanting to have a steady income and a decent wage but refusing to work. The White or yellow man can build the well for you and give you a job with a decent income, but you have to let the White man partly take control of your assets, which Africans do not want but the leaders of most African nations have accepted and are now becoming very Westernized (Ghana being the most notable nation to fully embrace Westernization, practically giving away citizenship to African-Americans and other diasporans so their Western educations can be put to use in building the country.
TL;DR Race is real and Black people aren't Western or Asian so they cannot have Western or Asian civilization without enforcement of Western ideals against the will of the people, a steady flow of Western financial aid, or Western leadership.

And speaking of different civilizations/countries and how they appeal to different groups...

OBLIGATORY REPATRIATION SHILLING
Many African diasporans in the West find themselves uncomfortable living in a society that isn't of their design and being surrounded by people who don't behave like they do, and who aren't them. They may not understand these feelings until they realize that this is because they are trapped in Western civilization, which was made to suit Western morality and needs and cater to White people, the rightful inheritors of Western civilization. If you're an exceptional African-American or other diasporan of West African descent who wants a sun-kissed Ghanaian kween instead of having to dodge baby-trapping ratchet sheboon hoes in the hood (lol), hates stereotypical niggers and want to be surrounded by a more refined people, is interested in discovering your roots, or wants to build a paradise in your ancestral homeland, and you're reading this (I know there are some Black Kiwis out there), you can get away from the trashy niggers you've undoubtedly realized you're surrounded by and start anew in a country whose inhabitants will accept you as one of them and where you can contribute far more than in any other place. Reminder that money goes way farther in West Africa and a poor African-American is a rich West African. You may find that you have far more in common with West Africans than your fellow Black diasporans, as has happened to many who have returned to their home. Ghana is definitely the best choice because it is a well-developed nation that has launched a program called Year of the Return specifically to encourage repatriation and is offering a lot of incentives to those who move there, but there are other nations with decent accommodation for diasporans. Just make sure to research Ghana, the Gambia, Senegal, and other exceptional West African nations before you actually make the move.
I WANT to read this, but holy fucking shit you need to format your posts better. That massive block of text is an eyesore.
 

Mnutu

kiwifarms.net
You can criticize the post-modernists for many things, but they were right about this; you shouldn’t expect western values from non western people. You shouldn’t hold up Western values as the objectively superior choice because there cannot be an objectively superior choice. It is only ever subjectively superior, and by all accounts, western civilization is the best only when practiced by happy westerners.

All this to say that, no shit sub-Saharan Africa never achieved a similar level of success. It’s nothing like us culturally. It was at its best comparable to the Inca or Aztec. Still worth remembering, but not emulating.
 

Godbert Manderville

kiwifarms.net
As others have pointed out, the bulk of Africa's best resources are further inland and the interior regions of Sub-Saharan Africa are a very harsh region that at best can only support small tribes and clans without industrial technology.

Most of the more advanced kingdoms and city-states in Africa were on relatively milder terrain and almost always along coasts and the major trade routes.

What resources are needed to build civilization on par with the Greeks and Romans? Wood and stone, bronze and iron ore, freshwater, farmland, and coastal fisheries. And we know not all are required together as the Greeks were notably farmland poor. SS-Africa is a huge place. I'd expect half a dozen areas that had all these things, as easily accessible as they were to other builders of ancient civilizations. Are we really saying there was not even one such favourable location in the entirety of SS-Africa?

In fact, we know for absolute certain that there was such a location that could have birthed an ancient African civilization of note - the Niger river valley where the medieval empires of Mali and Songhai were based. But these were late arrivals to the scene, when the ancient civilizations of the rest of the world had long gone or were at deaths door. And their predecessor - the Empire of Ghana - doesn't really seem to get going until the Muslim Arabs make contact. Was it the salt the Arabs sold that brought about this flourishing, or was it their culture and religion?
 

Techpriest

Praise the Machine Spirits
kiwifarms.net
What resources are needed to build civilization on par with the Greeks and Romans? Wood and stone, bronze and iron ore, freshwater, farmland, and coastal fisheries. And we know not all are required together as the Greeks were notably farmland poor. SS-Africa is a huge place. I'd expect half a dozen areas that had all these things, as easily accessible as they were to other builders of ancient civilizations. Are we really saying there was not even one such favourable location in the entirety of SS-Africa?

In fact, we know for absolute certain that there was such a location that could have birthed an ancient African civilization of note - the Niger river valley where the medieval empires of Mali and Songhai were based. But these were late arrivals to the scene, when the ancient civilizations of the rest of the world had long gone or were at deaths door. And their predecessor - the Empire of Ghana - doesn't really seem to get going until the Muslim Arabs make contact. Was it the salt the Arabs sold that brought about this flourishing, or was it their culture and religion?
It’s how navigable the rivers are. The Niger River is not akin to the Nile. It isn’t a straight shot and it runs a course in an unusual arc, surrounded by desert. The Niger delta is less navigable than the Nile delta. It’s also almost completely isolated from the mediterranian. While there was travel around the Sahara, it wasn’t on the level of that in the Mediterranean. It wasn’t able to come under the domination of any one power for a long time, and didn’t get to the population densities of either the Congo or the Nile river.
 

Lemmingwise

The capture of the last white wizard decolorized
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Just a foreword: I am more familiar with Southern Africa, West Africa, and the West African diaspora than any other Black regions. I am not very aware of East or Central African politics, and therefore cannot give examples of civilizations that independently met Western standards in those regions if any do exist.

I'd say a couple of nations did get somewhat close, but only after independence so idk if that counts. Nigeria, Liberia, Haiti, and Ghana were all quite nice countries from what I can tell when they first gained independence, with Ghana continuing to be very stable up until even now, and the others having a conflict/coup every decade or so. In certain regards and at certain times, they had Western-adjacent systems and economies, but are not now nor have they ever been Western. Part of the reason these two nations have had relative success is because there was international agreement on the legitimacy of their sovereignty, and the West was excited to trade with these nations, fund their political, social, and economic ventures, and do business with them.
A good example of a nation run by Black Africans that initially had a lot of success is Haiti. The West African inhabitants of Haiti murdered the French (many of whom were the strongest advocates for Black rule in Haiti) in a horrifying antiwhite genocide that has since been forgotten by many. Despite this, Haiti was accepted by European nations and America and had a long period of success and maintained systems of economy and government that were undeniably Western up until later on. A good example of what happens when a fledgling African nation gets on the Western worlds' bad side is Zimbabwe. I hate Zimbabwe's current government, yet I believe that if it weren't for sanctions, that the Zimbabwean people would have a society far better than they do now. I would never advocate for their sanctions being lifted because I don't feel the people of Zimbabwe deserve it, but I am using Zimbabwe to prove that success in an all-Black nation seems partly contingent on whether the White man gives the people gibz, recognizes the nations as legitimate, and creates vague guidelines to enforce Western values from afar.
The only example of a Western nation run by Black Africans I am aware of would be Liberia. American Mulatto descendants of free slaves, later mixed with West Africans, darker African-Americans who arrived in a second exodus to Liberia, Afro-Caribbeans, Sierra Leonean Kriol, and a fuckton of other African diaspora groups that are never mentioned, are the main ethnic groups that comprise the ethnic conglomerate known as the Americo-Liberians. I believe that Liberia was in touch with Western ideals because it was founded by people who were half-White, had Western educations, were accepted by the Western world as the rightful inheritors of a legitimate nation, were intimately familiar with the workings of American society. Liberia's legacy was upheld for about 150 years by peoples who became less and less White as time went on, but always had significant White admixture and often had been educated in American Universities. This nation was not perfectly Western, however, and the prevalence of ritual murders, slavery well into the 1900s, corruption, and other degenerate behaviors are evidence of that. As for nations that didn't meet the Western standard of society, I'd say that it is partly because the people of Sub-Saharan Africa are just incapable without Western assistance and are not cognitively or morally anything like Western peoples. Post-coup Liberia is a good example of this. Essentially, the Americo-Liberians promised to grant equal treatment to the indigenous Liberians, and did grant them many rights, but were afraid (and rightfully so) that indigenous Liberian rulers would not act according to the standards of the Americo-Liberians, who only made up 5% of the nation's population at their height and were only relevant to Liberian politicians because they were the only people allowed to vote, run for office, and dictate policy. While not giving indigenous Liberians the right to wield political power, Presidents William Tolbert and William Tubman paved the way to equality by refurbishing infrastructure, granting many Americo-Liberians suffrage and the ability to run for office (only if they converted to Christianity, learned English, and became Westernized to the fullest extent a fully-Black jungle savage could), creating jobs, stamping out discriminatory business practices, instituting a hut tax to encourage indigenous Liberians to move into more developed areas, and much more. Eventually, President Tolbert appeared to have made a mistake, and details are scare, but this is how it appears to have gone. Tolbert and his party members introduced a bill to increase the price of rice substantially, the reason for this being to increase the wages of farmers and encourage them to keep their jobs instead of moving to the cities. Although it was never passed, many Liberians feared that they would be unable to eat, and that the President's move was motivated by greed because he had several rice farms and was therefore seen as attempting to increase profits. There were protests across Liberia, and they were peaceful until a gang of "backstreet boys" (low-class thugs) joined and the protest turned into a riot. A degenerate rapist Krahn supremacist named Samuel Doe and his posse took advantage of the chaos, viciously murdered President Tolbert and his cabinet (rest in peace), took over the country, and ruled with an iron fist until another gang of indigenous Liberians led by Prince Johnson invaded the Executive Mansion, cut Doe's ear off, and Johnson ate his flesh as his crew beat Doe to death on camera (there's footage of this online, and it's quite nasty). After this, a slightly less awful President, Charles Taylor came to power, but was eventually driven out of the nation during the 2003 civil war as the violence ended in Liberia and moved into neighboring Sierra Leone. After a legitimate government was restored through a short transitional government, an era of peace and stability was initiated by none other than Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, who surprise surprise, had a White grandmother and a very Western uprising. Do you see the pattern now? Now former football star George Weah is the current President of Liberia, is perhaps the only fully-indigenous President to have not made a complete mockery of the people of Liberia. What's remarkable and unique about President Weah is that he, compared to all other indigenous Presidents, has so far been without significant scandal during his, apart from him advocating for violence against a political opponent, the allowance of dual citizenship, and the removal of the controversial "Negroes or persons of Negro descent" citizenship clause, slamming it as "racist".
You have to have a specific set of ideals to create Western civilization, and I'd say that most non-Western peoples by and large have different ideals and seem to be incapable of harboring Western ideals. I believe these ideals to be partly environmental, but also significantly genetic. Furthermore, I would even go so far as to say that most non-Western peoples, Black Africans included, don't actually want Western civilization. They want all of the benefits that come with living in a Western nation, but more often than not (with a few notable exceptions), they abhor the systems and ideals that are prerequisites for Western civilization. It's like wanting to have a lot of water on hand but not wanting to build a well, or wanting to have a steady income and a decent wage but refusing to work. The White or yellow man can build the well for you and give you a job with a decent income, but you have to let the White man partly take control of your assets, which Africans do not want but the leaders of most African nations have accepted and are now becoming very Westernized (Ghana being the most notable nation to fully embrace Westernization, practically giving away citizenship to African-Americans and other diasporans so their Western educations can be put to use in building the country.
TL;DR Race is real and Black people aren't Western or Asian so they cannot have Western or Asian civilization without enforcement of Western ideals against the will of the people, a steady flow of Western financial aid, or Western leadership.

And speaking of different civilizations/countries and how they appeal to different groups...

OBLIGATORY REPATRIATION SHILLING
Many African diasporans in the West find themselves uncomfortable living in a society that isn't of their design and being surrounded by people who don't behave like they do, and who aren't them. They may not understand these feelings until they realize that this is because they are trapped in Western civilization, which was made to suit Western morality and needs and cater to White people, the rightful inheritors of Western civilization. If you're an exceptional African-American or other diasporan of West African descent who wants a sun-kissed Ghanaian kween instead of having to dodge baby-trapping ratchet sheboon hoes in the hood (lol), hates stereotypical niggers and want to be surrounded by a more refined people, is interested in discovering your roots, or wants to build a paradise in your ancestral homeland, and you're reading this (I know there are some Black Kiwis out there), you can get away from the trashy niggers you've undoubtedly realized you're surrounded by and start anew in a country whose inhabitants will accept you as one of them and where you can contribute far more than in any other place. Reminder that money goes way farther in West Africa and a poor African-American is a rich West African. You may find that you have far more in common with West Africans than your fellow Black diasporans, as has happened to many who have returned to their home. Ghana is definitely the best choice because it is a well-developed nation that has launched a program called Year of the Return specifically to encourage repatriation and is offering a lot of incentives to those who move there, but there are other nations with decent accommodation for diasporans. Just make sure to research Ghana, the Gambia, Senegal, and other exceptional West African nations before you actually make the move.

I WANT to read this, but holy fucking shit you need to format your posts better. That massive block of text is an eyesore.

Here, I reformatted. There was only so much I could do, I didn't break up the long run-on sentences for example. I added some headers, but left the text intact. I put the call for black people to move to west africa under a spoiler.


Cat phuckers said:

Foreword

I am more familiar with Southern Africa, West Africa, and the West African diaspora than any other Black regions. I am not very aware of East or Central African politics, and therefore cannot give examples of civilizations that independently met Western standards in those regions if any do exist.


International legitimacy

I'd say a couple of nations did get somewhat close, but only after independence so idk if that counts. Nigeria, Liberia, Haiti, and Ghana were all quite nice countries from what I can tell when they first gained independence, with Ghana continuing to be very stable up until even now, and the others having a conflict/coup every decade or so. In certain regards and at certain times, they had Western-adjacent systems and economies, but are not now nor have they ever been Western.

Part of the reason these two nations have had relative success is because there was international agreement on the legitimacy of their sovereignty, and the West was excited to trade with these nations, fund their political, social, and economic ventures, and do business with them.


Black African success and failure examples

A good example of a nation run by Black Africans that initially had a lot of success is Haiti. The West African inhabitants of Haiti murdered the French (many of whom were the strongest advocates for Black rule in Haiti) in a horrifying antiwhite genocide that has since been forgotten by many. Despite this, Haiti was accepted by European nations and America and had a long period of success and maintained systems of economy and government that were undeniably Western up until later on.

A good example of what happens when a fledgling African nation gets on the Western worlds' bad side is Zimbabwe. I hate Zimbabwe's current government, yet I believe that if it weren't for sanctions, that the Zimbabwean people would have a society far better than they do now. I would never advocate for their sanctions being lifted because I don't feel the people of Zimbabwe deserve it, but I am using Zimbabwe to prove that success in an all-Black nation seems partly contingent on whether the White man gives the people gibz, recognizes the nations as legitimate, and creates vague guidelines to enforce Western values from afar.


Liberia

The only example of a Western nation run by Black Africans I am aware of would be Liberia. American Mulatto descendants of free slaves, later mixed with West Africans, darker African-Americans who arrived in a second exodus to Liberia, Afro-Caribbeans, Sierra Leonean Kriol, and a fuckton of other African diaspora groups that are never mentioned, are the main ethnic groups that comprise the ethnic conglomerate known as the Americo-Liberians.

I believe that Liberia was in touch with Western ideals because it was founded by people who were half-White, had Western educations, were accepted by the Western world as the rightful inheritors of a legitimate nation, were intimately familiar with the workings of American society. Liberia's legacy was upheld for about 150 years by peoples who became less and less White as time went on, but always had significant White admixture and often had been educated in American Universities.

This nation was not perfectly Western, however, and the prevalence of ritual murders, slavery well into the 1900s, corruption, and other degenerate behaviors are evidence of that. As for nations that didn't meet the Western standard of society, I'd say that it is partly because the people of Sub-Saharan Africa are just incapable without Western assistance and are not cognitively or morally anything like Western peoples. Post-coup Liberia is a good example of this. Essentially, the Americo-Liberians promised to grant equal treatment to the indigenous Liberians, and did grant them many rights, but were afraid (and rightfully so) that indigenous Liberian rulers would not act according to the standards of the Americo-Liberians, who only made up 5% of the nation's population at their height and were only relevant to Liberian politicians because they were the only people allowed to vote, run for office, and dictate policy.

While not giving indigenous Liberians the right to wield political power, Presidents William Tolbert and William Tubman paved the way to equality by refurbishing infrastructure, granting many Americo-Liberians suffrage and the ability to run for office (only if they converted to Christianity, learned English, and became Westernized to the fullest extent a fully-Black jungle savage could), creating jobs, stamping out discriminatory business practices, instituting a hut tax to encourage indigenous Liberians to move into more developed areas, and much more.


Liberian history

Eventually, President Tolbert appeared to have made a mistake, and details are scare, but this is how it appears to have gone. Tolbert and his party members introduced a bill to increase the price of rice substantially, the reason for this being to increase the wages of farmers and encourage them to keep their jobs instead of moving to the cities. Although it was never passed, many Liberians feared that they would be unable to eat, and that the President's move was motivated by greed because he had several rice farms and was therefore seen as attempting to increase profits. There were protests across Liberia, and they were peaceful until a gang of "backstreet boys" (low-class thugs) joined and the protest turned into a riot.

A degenerate rapist Krahn supremacist named Samuel Doe and his posse took advantage of the chaos, viciously murdered President Tolbert and his cabinet (rest in peace), took over the country, and ruled with an iron fist until another gang of indigenous Liberians led by Prince Johnson invaded the Executive Mansion, cut Doe's ear off, and Johnson ate his flesh as his crew beat Doe to death on camera (there's footage of this online, and it's quite nasty). After this, a slightly less awful President, Charles Taylor came to power, but was eventually driven out of the nation during the 2003 civil war as the violence ended in Liberia and moved into neighboring Sierra Leone.

After a legitimate government was restored through a short transitional government, an era of peace and stability was initiated by none other than Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, who surprise surprise, had a White grandmother and a very Western uprising. Do you see the pattern now? Now former football star George Weah is the current President of Liberia, is perhaps the only fully-indigenous President to have not made a complete mockery of the people of Liberia. What's remarkable and unique about President Weah is that he, compared to all other indigenous Presidents, has so far been without significant scandal during his, apart from him advocating for violence against a political opponent, the allowance of dual citizenship, and the removal of the controversial "Negroes or persons of Negro descent" citizenship clause, slamming it as "racist".


Requirements to create western civilisation

You have to have a specific set of ideals to create Western civilization, and I'd say that most non-Western peoples by and large have different ideals and seem to be incapable of harboring Western ideals. I believe these ideals to be partly environmental, but also significantly genetic.

Furthermore, I would even go so far as to say that most non-Western peoples, Black Africans included, don't actually want Western civilization. They want all of the benefits that come with living in a Western nation, but more often than not (with a few notable exceptions), they abhor the systems and ideals that are prerequisites for Western civilization. It's like wanting to have a lot of water on hand but not wanting to build a well, or wanting to have a steady income and a decent wage but refusing to work.

The White or yellow man can build the well for you and give you a job with a decent income, but you have to let the White man partly take control of your assets, which Africans do not want but the leaders of most African nations have accepted and are now becoming very Westernized (Ghana being the most notable nation to fully embrace Westernization, practically giving away citizenship to African-Americans and other diasporans so their Western educations can be put to use in building the country.

TL;DR Race is real and Black people aren't Western or Asian so they cannot have Western or Asian civilization without enforcement of Western ideals against the will of the people, a steady flow of Western financial aid, or Western leadership.

And speaking of different civilizations/countries and how they appeal to different groups...

OBLIGATORY REPATRIATION SHILLING

Many African diasporans in the West find themselves uncomfortable living in a society that isn't of their design and being surrounded by people who don't behave like they do, and who aren't them. They may not understand these feelings until they realize that this is because they are trapped in Western civilization, which was made to suit Western morality and needs and cater to White people, the rightful inheritors of Western civilization.

If you're an exceptional African-American or other diasporan of West African descent who wants a sun-kissed Ghanaian kween instead of having to dodge baby-trapping ratchet sheboon hoes in the hood (lol), hates stereotypical niggers and want to be surrounded by a more refined people, is interested in discovering your roots, or wants to build a paradise in your ancestral homeland, and you're reading this (I know there are some Black Kiwis out there), you can get away from the trashy niggers you've undoubtedly realized you're surrounded by and start anew in a country whose inhabitants will accept you as one of them and where you can contribute far more than in any other place.

Reminder that money goes way farther in West Africa and a poor African-American is a rich West African. You may find that you have far more in common with West Africans than your fellow Black diasporans, as has happened to many who have returned to their home. Ghana is definitely the best choice because it is a well-developed nation that has launched a program called Year of the Return specifically to encourage repatriation and is offering a lot of incentives to those who move there, but there are other nations with decent accommodation for diasporans. Just make sure to research Ghana, the Gambia, Senegal, and other exceptional West African nations before you actually make the move.
https://repatriatetoghana.com/
https://www.yearofreturn.com/



If it's still unreadable... there is only so much an uneducated white man can do to decypher wakanda hieroglyphs.

It was also pretty racist for capitalising "Black" and "White", but using no capital for "yellow". Since I am also racist, I left that unchanged.
 
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american_amadan

kiwifarms.net
practically giving away citizenship to African-Americans and other diasporans so their Western educations can be put to use in building the country.
I had a chick friend in college who was mixed race (white mom, dad from west Africa). I met her dad once and could tell while he was very proud to be black (nothing wrong with that) he hated African-Americans. I've heard this is also prevalent with native Nigerians when they go to the UK or US. They pretty much view black Americans as spoiled brats. It's easy to see why. The girl was based and you could tell where she got it from. I understand why Ghana wants to do this, but it's a disaster waiting to happen. Your average Ghana resident does not want some guy from America (who has no real understanding of Africa) coming in to tell them what to do. It'll turn into a blood bath just like Liberia.
 

Lemmingwise

The capture of the last white wizard decolorized
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I had a chick friend in college who was mixed race (white mom, dad from west Africa). I met her dad once and could tell while he was very proud to be black (nothing wrong with that) he hated African-Americans. I've heard this is also prevalent with native Nigerians when they go to the UK or US. They pretty much view black Americans as spoiled brats. It's easy to see why. The girl was based and you could tell where she got it from. I understand why Ghana wants to do this, but it's a disaster waiting to happen. Your average Ghana resident does not want some guy from America (who has no real understanding of Africa) coming in to tell them what to do. It'll turn into a blood bath just like Liberia.

Honestly, I was so surprised seeing black people in US and Canada; very different from my experience with the black people I knew. So unapproachable and aggressive.

Well, until I became a kind of substitute teacher and saw all corners of the Netherlands; then I knew it wasn't THAT different from average blacks in Netherlands either, including some of the teachers.

Looking back; the black people I knew were black people in a sea of non-blacks; they were making a hard effort to fit in. That's always tough and painful. Though at least unlike the non-blacks in a sea of blacks in some other areas, they weren't frequently beaten or stolen from.
 

american_amadan

kiwifarms.net
Honestly, I was so surprised seeing black people in US and Canada; very different from my experience with the black people I knew. So unapproachable and aggressive.

Well, until I became a kind of substitute teacher and saw all corners of the Netherlands; then I knew it wasn't THAT different from average blacks in Netherlands either, including some of the teachers.

Looking back; the black people I knew were black people in a sea of non-blacks; they were making a hard effort to fit in. That's always tough and painful. Though at least unlike the non-blacks in a sea of blacks in some other areas, they weren't frequently beaten or stolen from.
Are you Dutch? My parents are Irish so I've spent a ton of time in the UK and Ireland. I've met a lot of different black people in both Dublin and London, they seem to be more down to earth, understanding about Europeans and their gripes with the migration crisis. It's a different world from America. When I was 20 years old and stupid a black Londoner sat me down in a bar and explained how the entire English football system worked. It got me into soccer in general, now I love it.

I work in law in a bigger American city so I am around black lawyers/defendants/judges, everything. You really see two sides of black America in that context. I've always said, at least in America, black women judges are ruthless to black defendants. White judges will give a black guy his 5th chance, the black judges won't. Black America is a really strange subculture. Money and influence changes everything. Wealthy blacks in America don't put up with any shit, it's why you see poorer blacks call them Uncle Toms.

I was always interested in how a European would view African-Americans. It's much different than blacks in Europe and I think the Europeans have a really bad sense of what it's really like here. Europeans would start running when they saw the hood in America.
 

Lemmingwise

The capture of the last white wizard decolorized
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Are you Dutch? My parents are Irish so I've spent a ton of time in the UK and Ireland. I've met a lot of different black people in both Dublin and London, they seem to be more down to earth, understanding about Europeans and their gripes with the migration crisis. It's a different world from America. When I was 20 years old and stupid a black Londoner sat me down in a bar and explained how the entire English football system worked. It got me into soccer in general, now I love it.

I work in law in a bigger American city so I am around black lawyers/defendants/judges, everything. You really see two sides of black America in that context. I've always said, at least in America, black women judges are ruthless to black defendants. White judges will give a black guy his 5th chance, the black judges won't. Black America is a really strange subculture. Money and influence changes everything. Wealthy blacks in America don't put up with any shit, it's why you see poorer blacks call them Uncle Toms.

I was always interested in how a European would view African-Americans. It's much different than blacks in Europe and I think the Europeans have a really bad sense of what it's really like here. Europeans would start running when they saw the hood in America.
Yes I am, no secret.

I think it's changing. You can see how american style social justice is expanding its influence, particularly in cities like Amsterdam that have considerable Critical Theory type education. But also through media and netflix. In that sense, we are becoming more like america. In the Netherlands two of the notable examples are that there is an increase in celebration of christmas and decrease in celebration of sinterklaas, which is one of the three fathers of the american christmas tradition (we mostly just gave the name, santa clause, the rest is from england and sweden). The other notable example is that people say "white" ("wit") instead of "blank", which is the way dutch people call light-skinned people (much like the french do).

I don't think black america is that strange a subculture. It really isn't that different from black brazil, black amsterdam. It has some difference from african countries, because the inter-black rivalry is more clearly established between ethnic groups.

In any case what you describe is pretty much what I'd expect.

I don't have too much experience with american blacks or canadian blacks, just a couple of surface level experiences. It's one of the few times where I saw people I wanted to socialise with and I was just apparently thoroughly unwelcome. That's completely different from african countries, where black people will generally wave and smile (and point at you) whenever they see white folk (and kinda nudge their fellow to look at the white monkey).

The couple I've met who travelled here from the US have generally been really nice people, but when people are tourists they are not the same and it's a pre-selected group.

PS. What do you mean with them being more down to earth? In what way?
 
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mr.moon1488

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
There's a lot of overthinking in this thread when the answer is easily observable by simply looking at blacks residing in modern western countries. On the rare occasion you see a black person who doesn't behave like a nigger, he's absolutely made into a pariah by his kinsmen to the point at which he must associate with non-blacks in order to have a social life. The only reason he has this option is precisely that he resides in a white country. In a society of nothing but blacks such as Sub-Sahara Africa, he will not simply be a pariah, but rather an easy target.
 
Honestly, I was so surprised seeing black people in US and Canada; very different from my experience with the black people I knew. So unapproachable and aggressive.

Well, until I became a kind of substitute teacher and saw all corners of the Netherlands; then I knew it wasn't THAT different from average blacks in Netherlands either, including some of the teachers.

Looking back; the black people I knew were black people in a sea of non-blacks; they were making a hard effort to fit in. That's always tough and painful. Though at least unlike the non-blacks in a sea of blacks in some other areas, they weren't frequently beaten or stolen from.
I have experience dealing with Blacks and with Africans. The Africans are like gods, very smart, hard-working, good manners. Better than 99% of the Whites. The Blacks were more varied. It's mostly self-selection, I think, that our African immigrants are the cream of the crop, but even when you hear stories about peasants/tribesmen from Africa they tend to say how welcoming the people are.

In interactions with Blacks in the rural South I've tended to find the young men and old men alike to be very gregarious, friendly, warm, and the same is true of the old women, but young Black women tend to have a very harsh, cold way about them. I think it might be motivated by bitterness because the Black men are all chasing White women and White men don't care for them, generally.
 
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