Why the Galactic Empire and First Order are the good guys in Star Wars

The Gangster Computer

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I've tried Foundation, and Asimov is an awful writer. Great ideas, shit execution. I've read a lot of pulp in my time, and Asimov in what I read has zero feel for characters.

Pournelle is good, but...

Star Wars borrows some ideas from science fiction but recommending Hard SF to someone interested in Star Wars is a non-starter. I would recommend dipping one's toes in some softer or more action heavy SF while trying to move from Star Wars to something deeper.

Star Wars is at its heart about action and emotion. It's not about how things actually work.
Absolutely. I think that part of the appeal SW used to have before Disney, despite the criticisms of it being generic scifi from hardcore scifi fans or that the movies just re-used concepts from other scifi and fantasy works that we're all familiar with or were already done before, is that these issues are where most of the charm comes from. Its a universe that's an amalgamation of great things we never thought could co-exist, like Buck Rogers, Dune, Japanese cinema, D&D, asian folklore, medieval folklore, those old Astounding Science Fiction magazines, and so many other crazy and familiar ideas wrapped up into one package of old fashioned good vs evil+knights and sorcerers in space that somehow manages to work. So we can argue all day that George and his writers were borrowing ideas from other works and that SW's films and factions are generic, but the end result was a huge and very interesting setting that opened itself to all manner of ideas and tabletop RPG shenanigans that somehow created the perfect merger of scifi and fantasy with good old fashioned good vs evil stories. Meanwhile, Disney takes no ideas or influence from any better works or tries to create its own original concepts to accompany these non-existent ideas, they just keep trying to mimic the basic superficial structure of the OT and repeat the same plots and formulas in hopes of recapturing the same level of appeal and success but all the while sprinkling some woke seasoning onto everything, then wondering why SW has become such a divisive and declining topic.
 
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U

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I've tried Foundation, and Asimov is an awful writer. Great ideas, shit execution. I've read a lot of pulp in my time, and Asimov in what I read has zero feel for characters.

Pournelle is good, but...

Star Wars borrows some ideas from science fiction but recommending Hard SF to someone interested in Star Wars is a non-starter. I would recommend dipping one's toes in some softer or more action heavy SF while trying to move from Star Wars to something deeper.

Star Wars is at its heart about action and emotion. It's not about how things actually work.

Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation. One I'm not sure is entirely correct though. Asimov's work is very sterile and this is primarily because he had a bad experience with his editor John W. Campbell and withdrew into mostly writing about mechanical themes such as robots and politics. I never got around to reading Nemesis though, which was supposedly a book he loves because it broke all of the taboos and features "aliens, sex, and alien sex". Given what SF writers get up to in their old age, I'm terrified of what kind of weird shit I'm going to find in there.

I stand by my Harry Harrison reccomendation though. Stainless Steel Rat is just pure fun and definitely had a hand in the character of Han Solo. Also, my In Conquest Born reccomendation stands, but that story's "heart" is more about despair, isolation, and intense psychological and emotional issues. Its not really a fun read. I can also reccomend H. Beam Piper, but he was a very optimistic author. Eventually killed himself, poor bastard.

Edit:

Also if we never reccomend hard SF to the kids they're never gonna read it. I'd rather some punk picks up a classic SF book, snorts and throws it on the ground than never think to touch it at all.
 
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The Gangster Computer

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And I thought I was the only one who enjoyed that song. Maybe signing up for this autistic shithole wasn't a total waste of time after all. :heart-full:
Only tasteless plebeians could hate such a groovy jam.
819730
 

The Shadow

As you sow evil, so shall you reap.
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Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation. One I'm not sure is entirely correct though. Asimov's work is very sterile and this is primarily because he had a bad experience with his editor John W. Campbell and withdrew into mostly writing about mechanical themes such as robots and politics. I never got around to reading Nemesis though, which was supposedly a book he loves because it broke all of the taboos and features "aliens, sex, and alien sex". Given what SF writers get up to in their old age, I'm terrified of what kind of weird shit I'm going to find in there.

I stand by my Harry Harrison reccomendation though. Stainless Steel Rat is just pure fun and definitely had a hand in the character of Han Solo. Also, my In Conquest Born reccomendation stands, but that story's "heart" is more about despair, isolation, and intense psychological and emotional issues. Its not really a fun read. I can also reccomend H. Beam Piper, but he was a very optimistic author. Eventually killed himself, poor bastard.

Edit:

Also if we never reccomend hard SF to the kids they're never gonna read it. I'd rather some punk picks up a classic SF book, snorts and throws it on the ground than never think to touch it at all.
That's the problem though. Star Wars isn't really sci fi. It just looks like it on the surface because space.

Even jumping from Star Wars to Dune can be a big and uncomfortable shift due to the density of it. I prefer to walk a reader to harder SF. Usually depending on what their interests are- someone that doesn't have an interest in ecology probably isn't gonna love Brin's Uplift, and someone with no interest in Military SF isn't gonna want Hammer's Slammers or Armor as their first SF novel. Recommending the wrong "classic" can have the effect of turning someone off the genre forever.

Again, Star Wars has more in common with Lord of the Rings or a white hats vs black hats western. It's, as one of the VHS trailers said "an epic adventure of heroes and villains". And that's what it is. It's the classic heroes journey told in a space adventure setting with influence from just about every genre imaginable.
 
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That's the problem though. Star Wars isn't really sci fi. It just looks like it on the surface because space.

Even jumping from Star Wars to Dune can be a big and uncomfortable shift due to the density of it. I prefer to walk a reader to harder SF.

Dune is, in retrospect, an extremely bad measuring stick for this kind of thing. Its a great novel with a great universe, but Herbert has a very specific writing style that to this day I haven't encountered much that compares. Even his use of tense is kind of weird and took some getting used to. One thing Asimov has the advantage in is, regardless of how vague his characters are, his text is very easy to pick up and read. Piper was pretty good with this too, with better characters, but with less interesting settings.

This is filtered a lot through my perspective though and frankly had I started with Star Wars tie-in novels, I probably would have lost interest and never read SF at all. I got into SF via horror novels like Stephen King though, maybe my autism is just a different strain. I'm certain even a younger reader today could find something in the classic SF section that is easy to read and easy to get into. Hell, Piper wrote a story where the characters land on a planet with a perfect copy of medieval Europe other than the names and they just decide to take the fucker over with their modern tech. That's pretty fantasy-ish by "hard" SF standards.

Edit: Wanted to add that Armor is a totally underrated book. I'd actually reccomend that to early SF readers first instead of Starship Troopers. ST is a fascinating book but it was very tedious at times and Armor has a much more emotional story.
 

The Shadow

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Dune is, in retrospect, an extremely bad measuring stick for this kind of thing. Its a great novel with a great universe, but Herbert has a very specific writing style that to this day I haven't encountered much that compares. Even his use of tense is kind of weird and took some getting used to. One thing Asimov has the advantage in is, regardless of how vague his characters are, his text is very easy to pick up and read. Piper was pretty good with this too, with better characters, but with less interesting settings.

This is filtered a lot through my perspective though and frankly had I started with Star Wars tie-in novels, I probably would have lost interest and never read SF at all. I got into SF via horror novels like Stephen King though, maybe my autism is just a different strain. I'm certain even a younger reader today could find something in the classic SF section that is easy to read and easy to get into. Hell, Piper wrote a story where the characters land on a planet with a perfect copy of medieval Europe other than the names and they just decide to take the fucker over with their modern tech. That's pretty fantasy-ish by "hard" SF standards.

Edit: Wanted to add that Armor is a totally underrated book. I'd actually reccomend that to early SF readers first instead of Starship Troopers. ST is a fascinating book but it was very tedious at times and Armor has a much more emotional story.
Eh, at least a few of the Star Wars books I read as a kid got me to check out the authors' other work (Timothy Zahn and Michael Stackpole, mostly). But I was reading Bradbury before I ever picked up a Star Wars novel, so I was always at least dipping my toes in some level of SF/F.
 

Autocrat

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Think of the First Order as the antithesis to what the Disney SJWs believe in. Then you will come to admire them and Kylo Ren.

This thread is an interesting take. I'd need to look into it more. Maybe rewatch all of the movies, which would be cool.
From what I've read in the books, I agree with Sith philosophy.
Wheres the Jedi would like for themselves and everyone else to conform with the will of the universe (yet they are such an active player, which may be their supposed hypocrisy that's talked about?), the Sith want the universe to conform to their will. Complete opposites, yet Sith seem to be more openminded to using both "sides" of the force to accomplish their goals.

However, Kylo Ren is a pretty shitty character that I don't admire. He killed his father in an effort to eliminate his empathy. The thing is, he could've utilized Solo + his mother, and thereby co opted the rebel movement in order to take power from Snoke. So he's a shitty strategist. He had no idea what he was doing once he killed Snoke and needed to take orders from General Hux while pretending they were his idea. He doesn't command respect. He's a shitty leader.
That only leaves combat, where he is yet again obviously lacking.

There's nothing to admire.


———————
P.S. Any Sith and/or Empire oriented book recommendations?

In war, NO ONE should be seen as a clear-cut good or bad guy. Where Gundam (especially in the old school years) got this right most of the time

I need to rewatch Gundam Wing. Haven't since it since the 2000 airing on Toonami
 
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Zaryiu

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I think they might be desperate enough to actually do it.
2019.01.16-09.21-boundingintocomics-5c3fa053b0372-1340x2060.jpg

This Disney SW comic released last year sent redditors into such a tizzy that they started making theories about how this proves Jar Jar is a Jedi/Sith.
This prove nothing, there was a Disney Marvel Star Wars comic that had Han, Chewie and Leia (I mean OT era Leia) with Lightsabers, that didn't made them Jedi/Sith
 

Emperor Julian

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The yuzhan vong retocon fucking sucks, anyone who defends anything in the EU set after dark Empire should be ignored.

The Empire is chronically overated because all it's stuff looks cool. The republic lasted for thousands of years whereas the under a century and about half it's problems where because it's leadership where crazy and evil.

They disbanded the Senate and blew up a key political and cultural world in the same week, even if the death star hadnt then been blown up they'd bassically done the political equivelant of a head of state announcing they're planning to run the nation into the dirt on live tv and this is all relies on no one realizing he was the guy who deliberatly caused the last civil war is the head of state.

God only knows what the day to day running a state Controlled by an evil wizard head of a ultra violent evil wizard organization would actually look like
 

The Gangster Computer

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This prove nothing, there was a Disney Marvel Star Wars comic that had Han, Chewie and Leia (I mean OT era Leia) with Lightsabers, that didn't made them Jedi/Sith
I'd really hate to bump a thread that's needlessly been bumped from obscurity, but it doesn't matter if it proves anything even though it doesn't. The comic was theory bait for idiots on reddit to make memes out of to try and get free advertisement for the comics.

The yuzhan vong retocon fucking sucks, anyone who defends anything in the EU set after dark Empire should be ignored.
I sort of agree. I honestly liked everything whether good or bad up until 25ABY when the Vong showed up. The Vong are basically Disney before Disney. They went around nullifying the achievements of the heroes and they nuked more than a quarter of the galaxy including all my favorite planets. And to make matters worse the payoff wasn't even that good after the good guys won since things only seemed to get worse and fixing the busted planets would take ages. The concept sounds good on paper I guess, but the execution was like some fart sniffer's attempt at introducing 40k into Star Wars because Games Workshop and Forgotten Realms wouldn't accept his super special edgy Hellraiser Drow faction into their canon. Only thing I liked about the Vong was the amount of detail put into their belief system and all that bio-engineered tech. Otherwise the Vong really didn't need to exist. The galaxy didn't need another galaxy-wide conflict that was somehow even bigger than the Galactic Civil War, at least not yet. I only regret that Filoni Wars didn't get to introduce their own version of the Vong they had been planning which would've retconned their entire series and probably force it into a reboot, rewrite or a complete removal.
 

Oskar Dirlewanger

i am the black niggers
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First of all if you care about Soy Wars at all or purchase this product you should be euthanized, it goes without saying, Soy Wars purchasers are worse than pedos (and they are all probably pedos anyway since they keep autistic screeching about entertainment aimed for 7 year olds, how's that different from the pony niggas?).

Second of all I remember seeing A New Hope at like 7 years old with my dad in the cinema, and afterwise I told him Death Star was the coolest shit, like a giant space station that can destroy planets and TIE Fighters come out of it, and my dad told me I'm not supposed to like the Death Star because the Empire is evil etc. Lol what a fucking cuck.
 

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