William James Mitchell vs. Twin Galaxies LLC, Jeff Harrist & Jeremy Young & donkeykongforum.com, Benjamin Q Smith -

DragoonSierra

kiwifarms.net
Yeah, that was the Dragster one. Omnigamer was attempting to TAS the game, and discovered there was no actual way to achieve the time. In fact, the game's code was simple enough for him to generate a spreadsheet of all the possible outcomes the game can generate, which was a huge factor in starting to knock down the house of cards that was Rogers' accomplishments.

It's worth noting that back in the day, verification by official TG referees was considered equivalent (or superior) to videotaped evidence, so many of Rogers and Mitchell's records consisted of them and their buddies vouching for each others' legitimacy.
So he got that record just by some dude saying it happened? No photoshopped evidence of it or anything?
 

Jean Lafitte 1812

kiwifarms.net
So he got that record just by some dude saying it happened? No photoshopped evidence of it or anything?

Here's a video on the matter by Youtuber/Speedrunner Karl Jobst.

Summary: Back in the 1980s, high scores were kept by publishers and were proven by photographs sent to the publisher. Jobst speculates that some secretary or intern misread Rodger's photo of a 5.57 and Twin Galaxies ran with it for 30 years. Two people even supposedly got 5.51 before Rodgers, but they weren't chummy with Walter Day.
 
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Pee Wee Herman

Playhouse Overlord
kiwifarms.net
The plot thickens

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Kendrick

Do not believe anything I say.
kiwifarms.net
Sounds to me that he strong-armed Guiness to give him back his record or else.

Also Guiness is a joke, the records it evaluates are worthless and they hold no authority.

I wonder what that "compelling evidence" was. Was it the same as what's in his legal documents?

What a joke. Truly a low-tier lolcow.
 

Pee Wee Herman

Playhouse Overlord
kiwifarms.net
Sounds to me that he strong-armed Guiness to give him back his record or else.

Also Guiness is a joke, the records it evaluates are worthless and they hold no authority.

I wonder what that "compelling evidence" was. Was it the same as what's in his legal documents?

What a joke. Truly a low-tier lolcow.

This makes Mitchell's defamation suit agains that one YouTuber viable now.
 

nohm

kiwifarms.net
Billy paid for a press release stating that Twin Galaxies found conclusive evidence that he used an emulator.

The "new" evidence and testimony he's relying on is that he recreated some of his scores, he took first place at a Donkey Kong tournament in Australia in 2019, some guy named Todd Tuckey disputes Twin Galaxies findings, and the current record holder says he didn't cheat.

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On June 15th, Billy asked for more time to serve Apollo Legend

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Attachments

  • MC_Docket.PDF
    475 KB · Views: 52
Last edited:

Kendrick

Do not believe anything I say.
kiwifarms.net
Pinging @AnOminous for this one:

Aren't point 5 and 7 contradictory? 5 says it has to prove good cause or excusable defect to get an extension (which is potentially only needed if he goes beyond his first timeframe), while point 7 goes ahead and say he doesn't because it's being done before the time limit.

Also, I'll need to re-read the initial complain. How does Billy uses the long-arm statute that allows him to sue a resident of another state in Florida instead of the defendant's state?

And I see in point 7 that he claim to have taken official counsel and stopped representing himself. Do we know which firm/lawyer took his case?

Edit: I've re-read the tentative, non-official document and point 4 adresses the jurisdiction question without adressing it, only dropping a false conclusion. He claims it happened in his county, while it all happened on Youtube. The only thing he might be able to justify is when Apollo showed up to confront him, and that's only if it was in his county.
 
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AnOminous

But I'm not mad at anyone.
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
Aren't point 5 and 7 contradictory? 5 says it has to prove good cause or excusable defect to get an extension (which is potentially only needed if he goes beyond his first timeframe), while point 7 goes ahead and say he doesn't because it's being done before the time limit.

Yes but it doesn't matter. It's called arguing in the alternative and so long as one of them applies the motion should be granted.
 

nohm

kiwifarms.net
Billy Mitchell's official statement:

While Guinness wasn't sued, the statement they published was factually inaccurate. They said that his perfect Pac-Man score was determined to have been done on mame, which is not true. Only his Donkey Kong scores were in dispute. His Pac-Man score was removed following the investigation, and he was banned from submitting any new scores because he broke the rules.

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I can't imagine

kiwifarms.net
Sounds to me that he strong-armed Guiness to give him back his record or else.

Also Guiness is a joke, the records it evaluates are worthless and they hold no authority.

I wonder what that "compelling evidence" was. Was it the same as what's in his legal documents?

What a joke. Truly a low-tier lolcow.

In fairness, the 1982 and 1999 records aren't questioned by anyone, and, at least in terms of historical record, should definitely be in the book. The disputed scores, on the other hand...not so much.
 

nohm

kiwifarms.net
There are a lot of new documents in advance of the hearing on July 6th.

Opposition
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-22-opposition-mitchell-pdf.1418165/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-22-objections-to-evidence-mitchell-pdf.1418164/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-22-billy-declaration-mitchell-pdf.1418162/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-22-declaration-exhibits-mitchell-pdf.1418163/

Reply
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-reply-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418173/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-objections-to-evidence-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418170/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-gleed-declaration-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418166/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-hall-declaration-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418167/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-kleisath-declaration-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418168/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-mruczek-declaration-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418169/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-pineiro-declaration-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418172/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-26-richard-declaration-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418174/

Motion to Strike Reply Evidence
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2020-06-29-motion-to-strike-reply-evidence-mitchell-pdf.1418175/

Opposition to Motion to Strike
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/2...o-motion-to-strike-twin-galaxies-pdf.1418176/

Supplemental Material
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/d...ction-6-18-20-4831-8228-6016-v-1-pdf.1418177/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/david-race-complete-statement-pdf.1418178/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/d...ssler-carlos-pineiro-robert-l-ch-pdf.1418179/
https://kiwifarms.net/attachments/findings-of-independent-investigation-by-walter-c-pdf.1418180/

Another retraction letter was sent following Guinness World Records reinstatement of Billy's scores.

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Attachments

  • 2020.06.22 - Billy Declaration [Mitchell].pdf
    889.3 KB · Views: 55
  • 2020.06.22 - Declaration Exhibits [Mitchell].pdf
    26.5 MB · Views: 68
  • 2020.06.22 - Objections to Evidence [Mitchell].pdf
    57.9 KB · Views: 55
  • 2020.06.22 - Opposition [Mitchell].pdf
    208 KB · Views: 54
  • 2020.06.26 - Gleed Declaration [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    193.3 KB · Views: 51
  • 2020.06.26 - Hall Declaration [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    20.5 MB · Views: 67
  • 2020.06.26 - Kleisath Declaration [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    593.5 KB · Views: 47
  • 2020.06.26 - Mruczek Declaration [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    203.9 KB · Views: 49
  • 2020.06.26 - Objections to Evidence [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    591.5 KB · Views: 48
  • 2020.06.26 - Pineiro Declaration [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    8.1 MB · Views: 56
  • 2020.06.26 - Reply [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    288.9 KB · Views: 58
  • 2020.06.26 - Richard Declaration [Twin Galaxies].pdf
    188.2 KB · Views: 44
  • 2020.06.29 - Motion to Strike Reply Evidence [Mitchell].pdf
    54.1 KB · Views: 48
  • 2020.06.29 - Opposition to Motion to Strike[Twin Galaxies].pdf
    225.7 KB · Views: 49
  • D. Tashroudian re Retraction , 6-18-20 4831-8228-6016 v.1.pdf
    62.6 KB · Views: 48
  • Dean Wenzel, Billy Mitchell, Joel West, David Race, Eric Tessler, Carlos Pineiro, Robert L. Ch...pdf
    106.4 KB · Views: 52
  • David Race Complete Statement.pdf
    682.7 KB · Views: 50
  • Findings of independent investigation by Walter C.pdf
    204.6 KB · Views: 50
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AnOminous

But I'm not mad at anyone.
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
Another retraction letter was sent following Guinness World Records reinstatement of Billy's scores.

This is a really good demand letter. Anyone receiving it should seriously consider its implications for the suit as it goes forward, or whether they'd really rather get out of this suit in some way.
 

nohm

kiwifarms.net
Disgraced cheater Todd Rogers also filed suit against Twin Galaxies and Guinness World Records earlier this year.

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Save the Loli

kiwifarms.net
I didn't know about the Todd Rodgers suit. I wonder how he'll prove his score at Dragster is real when the code makes it physically impossible to get that score?
This is a really good demand letter. Anyone receiving it should seriously consider its implications for the suit as it goes forward, or whether they'd really rather get out of this suit in some way.
True. I guess it depends how autistic they are about the truth since even if some random arcade game scores (which aren't even world records now) aren't worth the money in a lawsuit, I'd like to imagine some retro game autists would care enough to spend the money to fight the claim. It's like if Lance Armstrong or Floyd Landis sued the International Cycling Union to get their titles reinstated. I'm curious about why Billy's MAME score on Donkey Kong is accepted again when there's pretty convincing evidence it's fake. Did he threaten Guinness enough for that? It's true his earlier scores were legit, but his later Donkey Kong scores seem to be on MAME and not "legit" hardware.

Personally I hope they ignore it just so we can have a ridiculous retro gaming lolsuit.
 
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AnOminous

But I'm not mad at anyone.
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
I'm curious about why Billy's MAME score on Donkey Kong is accepted again when there's pretty convincing evidence it's fake. Did he threaten Guinness enough for that? It's true his earlier scores were legit, but his later Donkey Kong scores seem to be on MAME and not "legit" hardware.

That's really the question. Is Guinness just a bunch of cucks who go weak in the knees at a lawsuit threat, or did they actually check this out? The only people who know really are Guinness and Twin Galaxies themselves. But they'd better be pretty sure of themselves if Guinness isn't sticking by them. This doesn't really change the legal situation as much as it might seem but it certainly changes the practical situation.
 
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BarberFerdinand

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Apollo Legends addressed this in a community post, which I'll see if I can track down later after work. Assuming he's correct(and I have no reason to believe otherwise with how anal the turbo autists in the speed running community are about this stuff), all the evidence against Billy is rock solid, and GWR didn't conduct any proof standards other than asking an official at Twin Galaxies whether or not the runs were legit. Considering TG is being sued and didn't actually respond to any of the evidence against Billy, I'm disinclined to take them at their word on this.

I am curious though, if the evidence of cheating/tampering really is rock solid, does Billy's letter still carry bite to it?

edit: the post from Apollo Legends I mentioned:

Guinness only gave Billy his scores back because they're still too dumb to figure it out if he cheated or not. If Guinness understood the accusations to begin with, they would know that testimony from Billy's friends is irrelevant because there is video proof. At no point has Guinness shown any understanding of this case. They flip flop whichever way the wind blows with no understanding of what is actually going on
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