Women in active combat roles in the military -

[Watcher]

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts related to this are. Especially after the recent study by the US military.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/marines-wrestle-over-gender-1441928742?mod=e2fb

Faced with Mr. Panetta’s order, the Marines last year set up an all-volunteer unit with 295 men and 105 women who were randomly sorted into teams and run through months of electronically monitored tasks, from loading rounds into cannons to assaulting mock enemy positions.

The intention was to test how gender integration affected the unit, more than the individual.

The study found that in 93 of 134 tasks, all-male teams outperformed mixed-gender teams. In 39 tasks, there was no difference. In two tasks, the mixed-gender teams performed better.

It is worth noting however that this only really applied to jobs that related to heavy lifting. They tested things like weapon accuracy and the results were much more mixed.

One of the tasks involved firing a .50-caliber machine gun from atop a dirt mound. The mixed-gender teams were more accurate, on average. But the all-male teams scored better when the task included lugging the heavy weapon and its ammunition to the firing position.

“We weren’t trying to make them do something that was unrealistic. Machine-gunners are required to carry their machine guns,” said Paul Johnson, the study’s principal investigator.

The researchers generally found women performed worse and were more susceptible to injury when maneuvering while loaded down with heavy gear. To serve in the infantry, Marines must march 24.8 miles in eight hours while carrying 114 pounds of equipment. A loader on a howitzer crew must repeatedly hoist 100-pound shells into a cannon at a rapid clip.

You can see similar statistics when women test for jobs that require a great deal of upper body strength like firefighting.

There are other factors to consider. Like other countries that have women who serve in active combat roles and have different outcomes. As well as societal differences. Like how a great deal of recruits who choose to be in infantry in the military come from heavy lifting and contact sports backgrounds.

I really want to stress this thread should be about women in active combat positions in the military. Almost everyone agrees women can do well and even excel at non-combat positions in the military.

 

[GS 281]

Not every soldier is a cut, carved beefcake. They will be fine.

 

[DuskEngine]

Women make up about a third of the IDF's soldiers and just over half of its officers and the IDF is considered to be a pretty excellent fighting force.

 

[Doc Cassidy]

Women in combat roles throws off the whole dynamic. Men act differently around women than they do around men, I don't think anyone can deny that.

Anything that could undermine a unit should be avoided, even if it's something that goes against commonly held beliefs. That's why soldiers honestly have no rights. Once you try to give rights to people who's job is it to kill and be killed, everything falls apart. The military exists completely separate from civilian life and that's why it works.

 

[Watcher]

Women make up about a third of the IDF's soldiers and just over half of its officers and the IDF is considered to be a pretty excellent fighting force.

The Israeli Defense Force has a mandatory draft. The figures are also very skewed.

According to the Israeli Defense Force's site. Women make up 3% of combat personnel (as of 2011). The first first female combat battalion commander was as late as 2014. They also didn't allow female combatants until the year 2000.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

All we should do is just ensure that no women are put into combat positions for representation purposes. If someone can meet the standards then whoever they are they should be given the job

 

[AnOminous]

The Israeli Defense Force has a mandatory draft. The figures are also very skewed.

According to the Israeli Defense Force's site. Women make up 3% of combat personnel (as of 2011). The first first female combat battalion commander was as late as 2014. They also didn't allow female combatants until the year 2000.

Has morale or performance suffered?

 

[millais]

For a long time, the Israelis only had one mixed-gender unit, the Caracal Battalion. It's majority-women these days, and I've heard it's considered a second-rate unit. Possibly because they've never been sent into the thick of the action. Their combat record is limited to border patrol duty and covering other units' withdrawals during one of the Lebanese wars.

 

[Hyperion]

I imagine that most of these males were Infantry while none of the females were. So wondering why a Infantryman can outperform a filing clerk or whatever these ladies did is kind of silly.

That being said women do not belong in the Infantry.

 

[Big Nasty]

For a long time, the Israelis only had one mixed-gender unit, the Caracal Battalion. It's majority-women these days, and I've heard it's considered a second-rate unit. Possibly because they've never been sent into the thick of the action. Their combat record is limited to border patrol duty and covering other units' withdrawals during one of the Lebanese wars.

OK, so it's some kind of "poster girl" outfit?

 

[millais]

OK, so it's some kind of "poster girl" outfit?

Their border patrols put them on the Egyptian border where they sometimes see action, apparently. Though they didn't come out looking too good in their first combat engagement.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/bre...ire-exchange-as-another-is-shamed/2012/09/24/

 

[Holdek]

It's a bad idea. Men and women react differently under stress situations too. I recently saw a documentary on 9-11 and how NORAD responded. These were just airmen desk jockeys but one of the women dealing with it started crying and her superior had to tell her to stop and get her shit together. That doesn't bode well for women who are actually under fire, especially when you add in the additional physical requirements that they can't handle.

There are stories of female soldiers doing amazing things (Spanish Civil War fighters and WWII partisans) but as a policy if we have enough men to do the job, and they do it better, why risk our national security on it? Biology is not a frame of mind or social construct.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

I would comment on this but I just lack the deep knowledge of combat situations that you guys have

 

[MrTroll]

There are stories of female soldiers doing amazing things (mostly WWII partisans or Spanish Civil War fighters) but as a policy if we have enough men to do the job,

Which isn't always the case at all.

I see it this way. Maybe a combat unit of men strictly between the ages of 20 and 35 who are no shorter than 5'10 and no taller than 6'4 with 5% or less body fat and a bachelor's degree would be the ideal, but ultimately the military has to take what it can get, especially without a draft. Combat duties have never been reserved for only the finest and most capable physical and mental specimens.

 

[Marvin]

That's why soldiers honestly have no rights. Once you try to give rights to people who's job is it to kill and be killed, everything falls apart. The military exists completely separate from civilian life and that's why it works.

This isn't actually true. While a lot of rights are curtailed when you're in the military, you still get a lot of important protections. For example, you're entitled to legal counsel during a court martial.

 

[Watcher]

This isn't actually true. While a lot of rights are curtailed when you're in the military, you still get a lot of important protections. For example, you're entitled to legal counsel during a court martial.

You still take an oath of service that reduces much of your rights. Like you can get prosecuted for deserting your unit.

 

[Marvin]

You still take an oath of service that reduces much of your rights. Like you can get prosecuted for deserting your unit.

Like I said, a lot of rights are curtailed, but it's not like you're enslaved.

 

[XYZpdq]

This seems like something that should be left up to the people who are involved with it.

Also aren't there sanitary issues with women's stuff compared to men's that would discourage their deployment to some armpit of the world to live in mud for a few months of shooting brown people in the wilderness?

 

[RandyLahey]

I would comment on this but I just lack the deep knowledge of combat situations that you guys have

I wish the political correct asshats who make the decisions about this would take your same stance. Woman have been in combat since the dawn of time. The debate is woman serving in the Infantry, Combat Arms and or Special Operations, for anyone who has ever served in any of these branches know alot of men can not preform in these roles let alone woman. Ask most active duty Marines who work alongside female Marines if they feel confident that a 110lb female can pick up a 180lb man with 100lbs of gear on, most will say they do not feel comfortable. I have worked alongside the Canadians during training and they have integrated woman in the Infantry and everyone openly talks about how much of a shit show it is.

Most people who have a opinion about this are ignorant to the whole dynamics of the situation. Case in point in the "field" woman are required to take showers after so many days, this is a issue of hygiene however most males can stay in the field months after without a shower. Sustaining in a combat environment is what is affected when female soldiers/Marines do not have the opportunity to keep themselves clean, the Infantry is expected to fight and kill the enemy in harsh conditions if woman are more prone to infection and sickness and if they do not have the ability to clean themselves then it effects the combat performance of the unit. For those who cannot put two and two together, i am not saying men naturally have a stronger constitution then men. However men do not have to worry about periods and keeping themselves clean.

The Marine Captain in this video had served alongside a Infantry unit in Afghanistan and recounts her experiences, she supports woman not serving in the infantry or combat arms.

The Marine infantry squad's power comes from the aggressiveness and tenacity of the Marines within it, it thrives off of young testosterone fueled males making tough life and death decisions in a split second, introducing females to that equation will distract those young males and limit a squad's ability to carry out its mission.

 

[TL 611]

Honestly, I think the only problem is logistics. Females will need their own living quarters, showers, etc. which can be a strain on resources.

I don't think men will act that differently around female infantry, I'd imagine in a real situation that shit would go out the window, and you'd just be concerned for your group. You'd all be fully trained professionals, and the women would have to be held to the same standards to get the job in the first place. There aren't going to be brainless weak-ass bimbos signing up for combat, it's going to be women who are physically and mentally capable of the job. Whilst naturally women are less aggressive due to their lack of testosterone, you all have to agree there are exceptions to the rule, and I would imagine only women with a particularly aggressive personality would willingly join front line combat. Basically I'm calling all women in the army dykes .

I think that if people can't do their job exactly the same with a woman there, because of some preconceptions, they're a bigot. I mean putting one black guy in a squad of white supremacists will fuck with their squad dynamic, but it doesn't mean the black guy won't do his job.