World Of Darkness General (VtM, WtO, MtA, etc.) -

[Iodised Ant]

My experience has been different from this, I've never heard someone say they like New Changeling over Old Changeling, and people like having a more *plug in your preference* for the secret history of vampires in New Vampire, where as in Old Vampire it's pretty suspicious and non-canon if you were to remove the Christianity/Jewish stuff.

While I do like CTD, I can't really point to any one thing it does better than CTL. CTL feels like a better fit to oWOD than changeling the dreaming not just because of the edgier tone, but also because Changelings in the lost seem more super natural than changelings in the dreaming, with actual goals beyond playing pretend.

 

[Emperor Julian]

nWoD still superior because of how moldable it is. Just mod the old clans in and wipe your hands and call it a day. The hunger system is lol because it turns vampire into a blood management strategy game. I don't know how there aren't hundreds of rampaging vamps around. It was so dumb. Yeah, feeding was an afterthought in the other systems but you don't go in the opposite direction and slam on the gad.

I tend to divide a game by game basis, I'll conceed that nwod changeling and hunter are way better but mage was a misfire which had to made good in expansions and ironically suffers from less flexibility in magical archeotypes which is borderline inconceivable considering how brilliantly V:tr covered the vampiric archetypes in the corebook.

Sacking of the morality charts in 2nd ed CoD was a really good idea however.

One of the big problems with V5 was the way it grafted a lot from reqiem.....which is ironic considering how big an issue that vtr 1st ed was a stripped down and refined 3rd ed masqurade. You got to be your own game.

The fact that Reqiuem now has better discipline and blood magic range than VTM is fucking psychotic.

 

[Snekposter]

Like just a general overview of the setting and game or new developments of W5?

The new SJW bullshit. Every time I think the writers can't make it worse, there's something new in this thread...

 

[Emperor Julian]

The new SJW bullshit. Every time I think the writers can't make it worse, there's something new in this thread...

I don't really care about the woke shit since I can just ignore it,what bothers me is the fluff and mechanics are somehow a bigger mess than 3rd/v20. I have no idea why they wanted to re-invent the wheel.

To continue my fluff revisions

Ravnos-Clan Ravnos are now de facto a Sabbat clan, the majority of the week of nightmare survivors were Sabbat and numbers have been slowly growing as the 2nd inquisition is dying down. Chimeristry has proved expectionally useful for masquarade enforcement and the clans social predilictions have expanded mortal influence in low level organized crime,. The Clan itself is disinterested in sect leadership or theology but has considerable de-facto clout outside the cities, the presence of a 3rd less culturally extreme clan is proving moderating the sect.

Tzmisce-the fiends are effectively the same as previous editions.....evil. Their is a growing contingent of Anarch Tzmisce made up of former shovelhead embraces poorly suited to the clans culture. As a result the Anarch Tzmisce are closer to Caitiff culturally than anything,. The main clan finds its services under increased demand for masqurade re-enforcement and Sabbat conditioning, nothing de-associates recruits from their human lives as well as being transformed into completly differant people and it makes them a lot harder for inquisition to track.

 

[knightlautrec]

So, digging around, there's a couple explanations on this. These are just the explanations I've found.

1. Wendigo is used as a derogative for mentally-ill people. Or was. Windigo Pychosis may or may not have been an actual thing, despite the APA having it in their dictionary. Still, crazy cannibal mental illness defining natives now used to describe native werewolves.

An indigenous writer by the name of J. F. Sambrano was on the staff with Hunters Entertainment for W5, but he is no longer on the staff with Paradox making everything in house. Sambrano is "consulting", if I recall correctly. Here are his thoughts on the issue.

2. Lovecraft using the word. Lovecraft is racist, ergo, we shouldn't use Wendigo there, too.

I dunno. I don't mind names being changed to "generic English epithets that are easily translateable across all languages". Like Shadow Lords, Silver Fangs, etc. But apparently Wendigo is seen by... some natives as an "n-word" equivalent, that they type up "W******", or "W*ndigo" on Discord and Forums. But I expect whatever decision they make will cause a shitstorm, and I'll be there with popcorn.

I think LGB stuff is fine for characters to explore drama and have something interesting, so long as there's consequences. But it seems like they want everything to go in a Cartoon Network, Steven Universe hand-holding way. I expect CalArts werewolf pictures in the near future.
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Wendigo is in no way the n-word. I have never ever heard anyone use it as a racial slur. At the most people know it as a mythical creature and that's about it. No racist against Indians these days has ever said the words 'yah filthy wendigo go back to...America?'

The new SJW bullshit. Every time I think the writers can't make it worse, there's something new in this thread...

The SJW stuff was always kinda there. WW has always been a bit progressive with gay characters because vampires are, let's face it, pretty gay or at the very least, don't give a shit about who they use their inherent sexuality on and blood is blood. Can't quibble about who it comes from unless you're a Ventrue.

That said, while it was always there, it was in the background as a matter of fact sort of thing. It didn't insist upon being a political statement you had to agree with. The Tzimisce being able to change gender (and a notable example of a Sabbat Nazi Doctor who did...) was presented as a quirk of the clan that pushed the envelope to a far, far extreme. It required the reader to understand the hypocrisy and gleam the meaning underneath it. It wasn't spelled out. And it should be noted that vampires don't give a shit about mortal politics beyond who they can manipulate or benefit them. Which is why you could have Brujah who equally ran with with meth skinhead bikers as well as Vegan Anarchist Granola eaters. Anyone they can manipulated to be top of the rabble heap.

But these days? I would say it has the subtly of a sledgehammer. Vampires talking about Drumpf bad, caring about social issues that affect humans (that they should be exploiting not trying to fix...), trying to unironically paint Anarchs as 'the good guys' when they are just another flavour of Camarilla but with a different operating system. It shows a clear lack of understanding about the purpose of vampire at its very core and how the game should feel and be run. V5 also just had bad writing and no sense of self - the reason so many were fans of WW is the flavour and fluff was so interesting. And the current crop if writers? Are pushing rope when it comes to creativity. And scraping the bottom barrel.

'Can I feed my baby vitae?' Indeed.

 

[Corn Flakes]

The SJW stuff was always kinda there. WW has always been a bit progressive with gay characters because vampires are, let's face it, pretty gay or at the very least, don't give a shit about who they use their inherent sexuality on and blood is blood. Can't quibble about who it comes from unless you're a Ventrue.

That said, while it was always there, it was in the background as a matter of fact sort of thing. It didn't insist upon being a political statement you had to agree with. The Tzimisce being able to change gender (and a notable example of a Sabbat Nazi Doctor who did...) was presented as a quirk of the clan that pushed the envelope to a far, far extreme. It required the reader to understand the hypocrisy and gleam the meaning underneath it. It wasn't spelled out. And it should be noted that vampires don't give a shit about mortal politics beyond who they can manipulate or benefit them. Which is why you could have Brujah who equally ran with with meth skinhead bikers as well as Vegan Anarchist Granola eaters. Anyone they can manipulated to be top of the rabble heap.

But these days? I would say it has the subtly of a sledgehammer. Vampires talking about Drumpf bad, caring about social issues that affect humans (that they should be exploiting not trying to fix...), trying to unironically paint Anarchs as 'the good guys' when they are just another flavour of Camarilla but with a different operating system. It shows a clear lack of understanding about the purpose of vampire at its very core and how the game should feel and be run. V5 also just had bad writing and no sense of self - the reason so many were fans of WW is the flavour and fluff was so interesting. And the current crop if writers? Are pushing rope when it comes to creativity. And scraping the bottom barrel.

'Can I feed my baby vitae?' Indeed.

It's not so much "progressive" as back in the day the World of Darkness was simply just trying to be edgy. The writers weren't progressive per se, they were just mostly straight white dudes with weird tastes and ideas who enjoyed the "counter-culture" of the time. The first edition of Vampire came out in 1991, just a few years after the whole PMRC fiasco. A lot of people don't remember (or are too young to remember), but the late 80s and early 90s were lousy with moral guardians.

So the World of Darkness was born out of that sort of environment, and it was always meant to be contrarian. The moral guardians wanted the world to be sane, clean and wholesome? Well, White Wolf was going to come up with the strangest, most fucked up punk (and I mean actual punk, not Jim-Sterling-on-HRT-punk) world they could. Being gay was taboo? Well, tough. Vampires are inherently sensual creatures and they will bite whoever the fuck they want and get literal orgasmic pleasure out of it. People are afraid of ecoterrorists? Make a whole game based on being one. The culture insists that we consume and conform and pass standardized tests? Well, Mages literally change the world with their minds.

It worked back then, and it was dialed back somewhat by the time each game got to its third edition in the late 90s/early 00's.

The problem is, that sort of attitude drew in the dregs of society that the SJW movement would eventually absorb into their fold, and it left them wide open to infiltration and peer pressure. It's not that the World of Darkness was always "woke". It was meant to be shocking. But what was "shocking" back then is now being enforced. It wasn't so much a prelude to the "progressive" flood we have these days, as it was one of its first casualties. And unfortunately, there's no way they're going back to their roots. These days counter-culture ranges from the edgy alt-right to fucking tradwives and cottagecore, FFS.

 

[Snekposter]

Can we stop Clown World so memes about the degeneracy of post-marital sex in the missionary position go back to being jokes and not reality?

 

[Emperor Julian]

But these days? I would say it has the subtly of a sledgehammer. Vampires talking about Drumpf bad, caring about social issues that affect humans (that they should be exploiting not trying to fix...), trying to unironically paint Anarchs as 'the good guys' when they are just another flavour of Camarilla but with a different operating system. It shows a clear lack of understanding about the purpose of vampire at its very core and how the game should feel and be run. V5 also just had bad writing and no sense of self - the reason so many were fans of WW is the flavour and fluff was so interesting. And the current crop if writers? Are pushing rope when it comes to creativity. And scraping the bottom barrel.

I recently had to explain blow by blow with a player why the Carmarilla and the Anarchs would probably approve of tighter border control with Mexico due to country being directly under the control of the Sabbat, their's even a referance in midnight siege to the carmarilla specifically using profiling to fuck with warpacks. I remember a friend of mine explained to him that the Anarchs are probably pro gun because an m16 with built in grenade launcher really helps even the playing field against a 500 year old Lasombra abyss mystic

As a side note the NWO convention book specfically mention they dislike modern 24 hour news reel as polarizing and keeping the populaton in a state of panic

 

[Mexican_Wizard_711]

It's not so much "progressive" as back in the day the World of Darkness was simply just trying to be edgy. The writers weren't progressive per se, they were just mostly straight white dudes with weird tastes and ideas who enjoyed the "counter-culture" of the time. The first edition of Vampire came out in 1991, just a few years after the whole PMRC fiasco. A lot of people don't remember (or are too young to remember), but the late 80s and early 90s were lousy with moral guardians.

So the World of Darkness was born out of that sort of environment, and it was always meant to be contrarian. The moral guardians wanted the world to be sane, clean and wholesome? Well, White Wolf was going to come up with the strangest, most fucked up punk (and I mean actual punk, not Jim-Sterling-on-HRT-punk) world they could. Being gay was taboo? Well, tough. Vampires are inherently sensual creatures and they will bite whoever the fuck they want and get literal orgasmic pleasure out of it. People are afraid of ecoterrorists? Make a whole game based on being one. The culture insists that we consume and conform and pass standardized tests? Well, Mages literally change the world with their minds.

It worked back then, and it was dialed back somewhat by the time each game got to its third edition in the late 90s/early 00's.

The problem is, that sort of attitude drew in the dregs of society that the SJW movement would eventually absorb into their fold, and it left them wide open to infiltration and peer pressure. It's not that the World of Darkness was always "woke". It was meant to be shocking. But what was "shocking" back then is now being enforced. It wasn't so much a prelude to the "progressive" flood we have these days, as it was one of its first casualties. And unfortunately, there's no way they're going back to their roots. These days counter-culture ranges from the edgy alt-right to fucking tradwives and cottagecore, FFS.

So now days, they are about as edgy as Henry Rollins

 

[Obreon]

It's not so much "progressive" as back in the day the World of Darkness was simply just trying to be edgy. The writers weren't progressive per se, they were just mostly straight white dudes with weird tastes and ideas who enjoyed the "counter-culture" of the time. The first edition of Vampire came out in 1991, just a few years after the whole PMRC fiasco. A lot of people don't remember (or are too young to remember), but the late 80s and early 90s were lousy with moral guardians.

So the World of Darkness was born out of that sort of environment, and it was always meant to be contrarian. The moral guardians wanted the world to be sane, clean and wholesome? Well, White Wolf was going to come up with the strangest, most fucked up punk (and I mean actual punk, not Jim-Sterling-on-HRT-punk) world they could. Being gay was taboo? Well, tough. Vampires are inherently sensual creatures and they will bite whoever the fuck they want and get literal orgasmic pleasure out of it. People are afraid of ecoterrorists? Make a whole game based on being one. The culture insists that we consume and conform and pass standardized tests? Well, Mages literally change the world with their minds.

It worked back then, and it was dialed back somewhat by the time each game got to its third edition in the late 90s/early 00's.

The problem is, that sort of attitude drew in the dregs of society that the SJW movement would eventually absorb into their fold, and it left them wide open to infiltration and peer pressure. It's not that the World of Darkness was always "woke". It was meant to be shocking. But what was "shocking" back then is now being enforced. It wasn't so much a prelude to the "progressive" flood we have these days, as it was one of its first casualties. And unfortunately, there's no way they're going back to their roots. These days counter-culture ranges from the edgy alt-right to fucking tradwives and cottagecore, FFS.

If they wanted to be counterculture nowdays they would have fucking Qanon being a real person and nossies allover 8kun. Imagine "fluorecent" being an euphemism for a member of the inquisition and that kind of stuff. It would all be extremely retarded but at least not as curated and lackluster as WoD is right now.

But these days? I would say it has the subtly of a sledgehammer. Vampires talking about Drumpf bad, caring about social issues that affect humans (that they should be exploiting not trying to fix...), trying to unironically paint Anarchs as 'the good guys' when they are just another flavour of Camarilla but with a different operating system. It shows a clear lack of understanding about the purpose of vampire at its very core and how the game should feel and be run. V5 also just had bad writing and no sense of self - the reason so many were fans of WW is the flavour and fluff was so interesting. And the current crop if writers? Are pushing rope when it comes to creativity. And scraping the bottom barrel.

'Can I feed my baby vitae?' Indeed.

My opinion on the Anarchs is pretty close to that of Maximillian Strauss: they are a bunch of children who take no responsibility because they know that, in the end, it is the Camarilla who cleans the mess.

Guys, do you have ideas for a Void Engineers story? I was thinking in something akin to the movie Solaris (1972), but I'm afraid it could take too much of a Trekki vibe.

 

[Pentex]

But these days? I would say it has the subtly of a sledgehammer. Vampires talking about Drumpf bad, caring about social issues that affect humans (that they should be exploiting not trying to fix...), trying to unironically paint Anarchs as 'the good guys' when they are just another flavour of Camarilla but with a different operating system. It shows a clear lack of understanding about the purpose of vampire at its very core and how the game should feel and be run. V5 also just had bad writing and no sense of self - the reason so many were fans of WW is the flavour and fluff was so interesting. And the current crop if writers? Are pushing rope when it comes to creativity. And scraping the bottom barrel.

As if to prove your point, on the official World of Darkness youtube page, a fat, greasy goodthink player has an "in character" spergfest about Republicans. @1:14:00

If they wanted to be counterculture nowdays they would have fucking Qanon being a real person and nossies allover 8kun. Imagine "fluorecent" being an euphemism for a member of the inquisition and that kind of stuff. It would all be extremely retarded but at least not as curated and lackluster as WoD is right now.

"Hey guys, let's kidnap some mortals and have a Blood Feast in the park!"
"Dude, you're kind of glowing right now. Dial it down."

My opinion on the Anarchs is pretty close to that of Maximillian Strauss: they are a bunch of children who take no responsibility because they know that, in the end, it is the Camarilla who cleans the mess.

Guys, do you have ideas for a Void Engineers story? I was thinking in something akin to the movie Solaris (1972), but I'm afraid it could take too much of a Trekki vibe.

If you define yourself as solely 'the Opposition/Resistance/Antithesis' and have no actual plan for what happens when the 'Establishment/Thesis' removed, then yes, you are probably an idiot and the Elders shouldn't listen to you. Which is why I had a good laugh when White Wolf retconned the Anarchs getting their shit pushed in by the Kuei-jin.

You could go the Space Marine route and fly around the Umbra, purging Xenos for the glory of the God-Emperor...I mean, neutralizing Reality Deviants according to the will of Control. Or if space isn't the place, play as members of Earth Frontier Division, meet strange an unusual creatures living on mountains, under the sea, or in the last hidden jungles on Earth...and then purge the shit out of them with big guns.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Guys, do you have ideas for a Void Engineers story? I was thinking in something akin to the movie Solaris (1972), but I'm afraid it could take too much of a Trekki vibe.

Event horizon is pretty much my standard template technocrat deep space game. I'd also recommend dead space before it got shit.

 

[breadandcircuses]

I am so glad my exposure to the World of Darkness was the New World of Darkness.

The Lost has a far better story of personal horror then the Dreaming is (though in fairness, that's not the story it tells), for example.

You don't get apologia for the Seers of the Thrones like you do with that Technocratic Union, either.

 

[knightlautrec]

As if to prove your point, on the official World of Darkness youtube page, a fat, greasy goodthink player has an "in character" spergfest about Republicans. @1:14:00

They can't help themselves. They are such retards who can't understand the irony of championing a game world whose entire purpose is shades of grey who let's you PLAY as the traditional 'villains' and adds layers and nuance to their activities and declaring a whole subset of people as evil based on one political affiliation.

NuWoD is full of these retards who just don't get it. I keep hoping they'll fuck off and just leave us oldfags in peace but they still keep squatting in my hobby like a bad stink.

 

[Emperor Julian]

You don't get apologia for the Seers of the Thrones like you do with that Technocratic Union, either.

For me that's one of the problems with new mage. Seers of the throne came across incredably bland and trite, no nuance or complexity just asshole wizards. The one time I ran an awakening campaign and used the way more menacing abyss and it's mages instead who are pretty fun bad guys.
I ultimatly consider awakening one of the weaker nwod games due to it's failure to effectively incorperate the broad variety of magi mythic archeotypes to produce distinct types of mage: something reqiuem, hunter and changeling did with their settings exceptionally well.

 

[breadandcircuses]

In all fairness, I never played Awakening, just read the books.

What really hooked me into nWoD, though, was Promethean: the Created. Long drawn out stories of personal horror and growth. It was nice.

 

[Emperor Julian]

In all fairness, I never played Awakening, just read the books.

What really hooked me into nWoD, though, was Promethean: the Created. Long drawn out stories of personal horror and growth. It was nice.

Changeling the lost blew my mind, it's hard to understate how good a game it is.

 

[breadandcircuses]

Changeling the lost blew my mind, it's hard to understate how good a game it is.

Changeling is great and I love it. I particularly love the madness lying just underneath in the game line.

 

[Snekposter]

You don't get apologia for the Seers of the Thrones like you do with that Technocratic Union, either.

The Technocrats are an interesting, nuanced faction who despite being the obvious bad guys, have a route through history that can be traced so players can see where they went wrong. More to the point, as early as Revised they're questioning themselves, wondering if they went wrong somewhere due to the fact their own Enlightened Science is becoming less and less potent compared to technology, and its a small but present existential concern of theirs. Obviously they don't think the organization as a whole is wrong or its ideals or goals, but as far as villains go "Did we end up hoisting ourselves with our own petard at one point?" is far more introspective than most, even if they just think its a minor, easily-corrected mistake and not an intrinsic flaw of their ideology.

 

[breadandcircuses]

I just like how the Seers are a literal Pyramid Scheme of Magic, where you have carte blanche to abuse everyone beneath you in the hierarchy, yet must bow and serve all those above you.

The fact is, the Seers of the Throne have won their Ascension War with the Diamond Orders of Atlantis and it's just been millennia of cleaning up the Rebels in the Hinterlands.