World Of Darkness General (VtM, WtO, MtA, etc.) -

[Jerri's Kid]

My question is: were there really enough people who wanted to play twitchy-monster-at-the-edge-of-frenzy to justify narrowing down the game to that extent?

I played a lot of Vampire during the 2nd edition days and Storytellers for the most part ignored frenzy if it hampered the storytelling, which it did sometimes. I've read some reviews of V5 on certain RPG forums and some people like the focus on hunger, but I'm not sure if they're the majority. Most people who played Vampire back in the day were all about the intrigue and feeling powerful. Having to worry about going nuts because you didn't feed that day would have annoyed them and most of the time the Storyteller would breeze through any moments when you had to feed.

 

[Adamska]

Honestly, having the rules force you to play a monster is pretty stupid IMO, since you yourself can be the monster already with your own brain creativity.

Why be forced to slaver and drool over some hot pulsing neck when you could just watch and stalk said person since she's your type as a ventrue naturally? Why act like the beast when you can just fucksnap and break people as a Brujah naturally?

It feels like they assume you won't be a horrid monster playing this.

Anywhos, for those who never looked at Prometheans seriously, did a stream a few days ago:

I do think it's the best Chronicles book besides Hunter; rather than struggle to hold onto humanity or embracing a beast, you seek to be human instead, or at least uphold the ideal.

 

[Protistology]

Honestly, having the rules force you to play a monster is pretty stupid IMO, since you yourself can be the monster already with your own brain creativity.

This. It feels like they're using the rules to force a certain playstyle i.e. no murder hobos (see no playable Sabbat).

In reality, a good group will have the proper playstyle and a bad group will fuck up the game in other ways.

More importantly, from a business perspective, so what if people want to play murder hobos?

Also, if your group wants you to play a Sabbat game, just say no or explain why an Anarch high Humanity game is much better, don't let the mechanics force it for you.

As always, the most important thing in VTM is getting intelligent, well intentioned, and extremely motivated players (which is why I never play VTM).

 

[Emperor Julian]

Also, if your group wants you to play a Sabbat game, just say no or explain why an Anarch high Humanity game is much better, don't let the mechanics force it for you.

the weird part is the anarchs can't really maintain higher humanity for that long if you play them as depicted. considering casual violations are common. One of the weakest fluff parts of v5 is the erronious idea of the anarchs as good guys when they're not even very good protagonists vs the cams.

 

[Pentex]

Happy Dark Father's Day!

 

[WhatIsThePunchline]

One of the bits of metaplot in 5th I like is that anarchs broke out and formed their own sect. They could have done all the sects better... and kept the sabbat as a game element, because one of the most fun parts of having three sects is the asymmetry and it opens for a lot of stories where they try to maneuver against each other. But I do like the idea of the anarchs as fully independent from the camarilla.

The original game was much better at pushing the players into being evil without brute forcing it. Being amoral and ruthless was just a lot more convenient than trying to be good. The books literally encouraged people to try and be good and moral, while making that really difficult in practice. And they didn't need to brute force it with mechanics or browbeating.

 

[Syaoran Li]

I've honestly wondered what would happen if a more "based" (or just a non-woke) company decided to buy the license to Chronicles of Darkness from Paradox?

It's pretty obvious Paradox does not give a shit about Requiem or any of the other Chronicles games and mainly keeps it around to give the guys at Onyx Path some busywork after the 20th Anniversary Edition books had finished cycling out.

If someone raised the capital, they could probably license Chronicles of Darkness from Paradox on the cheap since those guys mainly just care about V5 as far as tabletop games are concerned.

 

[knightlautrec]

I've honestly wondered what would happen if a more "based" (or just a non-woke) company decided to buy the license to Chronicles of Darkness from Paradox?

It's pretty obvious Paradox does not give a shit about Requiem or any of the other Chronicles games and mainly keeps it around to give the guys at Onyx Path some busywork after the 20th Anniversary Edition books had finished cycling out.

If someone raised the capital, they could probably license Chronicles of Darkness from Paradox on the cheap since those guys mainly just care about V5 as far as tabletop games are concerned.

Onyx Path pretty much has Chronicles on lock down. I don't like some of the writers (Ie, the troon ones) but Onyx Path is a competent company when it comes to actually finishing books and products. I don't think OP is gonna let go of the death grip they have on Chronicles. It still makes them money and they're successful on kickstarter.

On a personal note, I'm more interested in buying the mobile game rights from Paradox tbh. I'd like to do a visual novel puzzle lite game for VtM. My initial idea was about a ghoul who basically gets thrust into being a servant to an elder vampire when your ghouled parent basically signs you away in exchange for finally getting embraced. You'd pick the elders clan (for a different experience + eventual embrace) and have to navigate the social ladder from the bottom as a smart/savvy ghoul or risk death. Which would be a challenge for oldfags but be sort an intro to the game for someone who perhaps had never played VtM.

 

[Syaoran Li]

Onyx Path pretty much has Chronicles on lock down. I don't like some of the writers (Ie, the troon ones) but Onyx Path is a competent company when it comes to actually finishing books and products. I don't think OP is gonna let go of the death grip they have on Chronicles. It still makes them money and they're successful on kickstarter.

On a personal note, I'm more interested in buying the mobile game rights from Paradox tbh. I'd like to do a visual novel puzzle lite game for VtM. My initial idea was about a ghoul who basically gets thrust into being a servant to an elder vampire when your ghouled parent basically signs you away in exchange for finally getting embraced. You'd pick the elders clan (for a different experience + eventual embrace) and have to navigate the social ladder from the bottom as a smart/savvy ghoul or risk death. Which would be a challenge for oldfags but be sort an intro to the game for someone who perhaps had never played VtM.

I know Onyx Path wouldn't let go of Chronicles but IIRC, they still don't own it and just lease it from Paradox, right?

 

[knightlautrec]

I know Onyx Path wouldn't let go of Chronicles but IIRC, they still don't own it and just lease it from Paradox, right?

Yes- that's true. Paradox owns it all. Onyx Path was kind of silly with their copyright ngl. They own Scion (of all things) but didn't lock down CoD copyright and developed it under White Wolf as publisher who owned it at the time. Which is a little ass backwards. In video games if you get a publisher (say, Take two for example) - your studio owns all creative rights and the IP if you've negotiated properly.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Yes- that's true. Paradox owns it all. Onyx Path was kind of silly with their copyright ngl. They own Scion (of all things) but didn't lock down CoD copyright and developed it under White Wolf as publisher who owned it at the time. Which is a little ass backwards. In video games if you get a publisher (say, Take two for example) - your studio owns all creative rights and the IP if you've negotiated properly.

I think the lesson to be learned is that Onyx Path doesn't really know what they're doing. They have some competent staff, but they also make some really weird decisions sometimes.

 

[Emperor Julian]

it's instructive they look downright good in comparison to white wolf's v5 developers.

 

[Syaoran Li]

Yes- that's true. Paradox owns it all. Onyx Path was kind of silly with their copyright ngl. They own Scion (of all things) but didn't lock down CoD copyright and developed it under White Wolf as publisher who owned it at the time. Which is a little ass backwards. In video games if you get a publisher (say, Take two for example) - your studio owns all creative rights and the IP if you've negotiated properly.

I'm wondering if that was entirely due to Onyx Path incompetence or because of the previous CCP merger that led to White Wolf's first demise and the origin of Onyx Path to begin with.

Crowd Control Productions was pretty shitty towards White Wolf and by extension Onyx Path, but it was more due to negligence and the fact they wanted to cash in on an MMO that ultimately never got made. IIRC, the earliest plans were to have it based on Requiem and the New World of Darkness before they shifted gears to the older WoD material.

Paradox actively expresses disdain for the material from New World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness while CCP just didn't give a shit so long as White Wolf didn't interfere with the money they made from EVE Online at the time.

When Paradox bought White Wolf, they bought the whole thing from CCP and I think Onyx Path was simply upholding the contract from before where they'd simply license the rights for Chronicles of Darkness.

Scion and Trinity were pretty much dead ends and I'd guess weren't really considered at all in the contract covering WoD, Chronicles, and Exalted. That could explain why Onyx Path got the full rights to Scion but not Chronicles of Darkness.

 

[knightlautrec]

it's instructive they look downright good in comparison to white wolf's v5 developers.

I mean...unpopular opinion but Chronicles despite the changes had some really decent esoteric lore and tightened the game in ways OWoD didn't. I love Chronicles.

I love the absolute weirdness of VtR - some of it is so bizarre and out there like Architects of the Monolith being able to control city grids and ley lines. That's so interesting and different. They went real weird with it instead of later editions of VtM in which they started taking out the more fantastical elements of vampirism in favour of being more gritty.

 

[Emperor Julian]

I mean...unpopular opinion but Chronicles despite the changes had some really decent esoteric lore and tightened the game in ways OWoD didn't. I love Chronicles.

I love the absolute weirdness of VtR - some of it is so bizarre and out there like Architects of the Monolith being able to control city grids and ley lines. That's so interesting and different. They went real weird with it instead of later editions of VtM in which they started taking out the more fantastical elements of vampirism in favour of being more gritty.

VtR has a lot of strengths as a setting. My only real objection was how cartoonish and shit the circle of the crone are both in fluff and crunch, Chuck wendig wrote their book and it shows. I always thought it worked best as free form template for settings of your own devising rather than a setting itself.
Interestingly the weirdness of all those bloodline disciplines actually highlights why v5's attempt to simplify is doomed as reqiem's before it-as you produce more books you create further mechanics to justify purchases, so in the end you'll end upwith a new bloated mess of weird disciplines which doesnt have the previous 3rd ed onwards attempts to refine and moderate. I mean Oblivion is already misbalanced and incoherant and we're only 5 books in.
werewolf the forsaken can eat a plate of dicks however.

 

[knightlautrec]

werewolf the forsaken can eat a plate of dicks however.

It's certainly a bit of a downgrade from WtA BUT the pure tribes are much more interesting than Spirals as enemies. And if I could moosh them together, I'd take the base of WtA core and add in the Pure tribes as the core agents of the Wyrm rather than just BSD. Having a different flavour of enemy would be nice in WtA. BSD are hilariously over the top evil that you have to question why anyone would willingly dance the Spiral. (Because some aren't just tortured into it - they join) and the Pure being insane but calculating facets of the Wyrm could make a lot of sense. The primal and the corporate and the fanatical.

 

[Corn Flakes]

It's certainly a bit of a downgrade from WtA BUT the pure tribes are much more interesting than Spirals as enemies. And if I could moosh them together, I'd take the base of WtA core and add in the Pure tribes as the core agents of the Wyrm rather than just BSD. Having a different flavour of enemy would be nice in WtA. BSD are hilariously over the top evil that you have to question why anyone would willingly dance the Spiral. (Because some aren't just tortured into it - they join) and the Pure being insane but calculating facets of the Wyrm could make a lot of sense. The primal and the corporate and the fanatical.

I'll be honest, these days I'd much rather play Supernatural Border Patrol with Forsaken than play Murderhippy Woof-Woof with Apocalypse. The tribes (both Pure and Moon) are about as boring as unflavored oatmeal compared to Apocalypse's, but the rest of the setting works so much better to me. You can do much more varied character concepts, plots and environments with Forsaken than Apocalypse.

 

[Techpriest]

I'll be honest, these days I'd much rather play Supernatural Border Patrol with Forsaken than play Murderhippy Woof-Woof with Apocalypse. The tribes (both Pure and Moon) are about as boring as unflavored oatmeal compared to Apocalypse's, but the rest of the setting works so much better to me. You can do much more varied character concepts, plots and environments with Forsaken than Apocalypse.

I also like that forsaken sort of encourages crossovers. Packs can easily include a mage or a Sin Eater, or even a vampire or changeling. Don’t forget mummy cults either.

 

[Adamska]

I'd rather play spirit border patrol than Furry Captain Planet every single day of the week without any real argument for that. This opinion became bedrock when I had to deal with that idiot Brucato's attempt to export that mentality with Changing Breeds, which has one clade that works and one character in it that's good.

But then I'm the odd duck in my group since they seem to prefer werewolf in general.

 

[Snekposter]

I'd rather play spirit border patrol than Furry Captain Planet every single day of the week without any real argument for that. This opinion became bedrock when I had to deal with that idiot Brucato's attempt to export that mentality with Changing Breeds, which has one clade that works and one character in it that's good.

But then I'm the odd duck in my group since they seem to prefer werewolf in general.

It isn't just Werewolf but every other splat fixed flaws but added new ones. A lot of the Requiem esoterica, Changeling being unimaginably better suited to the setting... just think Hunter could have handled things a bit differently. Maybe play up some of the potential pulp a bit more, especially for lower-level games? Don't need to be full-blown Ghostbusters with access to energy beams, but having Old Man Henderson in the party would be pretty sweet.

And a bit of a crossover from a different thread, plenty of room for a Conspiracy based off of Monster Hunter International. Primarily Beast hunters right now, but no reason they couldn't branch out into PMC and general off-the-books "contracting" services for VALKYRIE and Cheiron. Still not sure what a proper Endowment list would be or called, but I'd probably give them a limited selection of various low-level ones given their breadth of "work experience" under the name Esoterica.