World of Warcraft: We Wuz Pirates An Sheit -

Medicated

Pedophile
kiwifarms.net
The guild I run with is mostly normies and old women. They love spending all day farming resources, but they can't handle modern raiding. Modern raid bosses just have too many mechanics and put too much responsibility on each player. Our first 45 wipes on Gh'uun were them learning how to pass the balls to one another. Heck, I'll never forget the night when I had to spend 20 minutes in discord explaining a single mechanic on a normal mode boss to my raid group because it was so unintuitive that nobody had any idea that they were doing something wrong.

Classic is tailor made for these kinds of players. They can spend all day farming and then at night, jump into a raid where their only responsibility as a DPS is to stand still, shoot the boss, and let the tanks do all the positioning work.
That's where I think Blizzard failed the players. In fact a lot of companies have done this. Instead of appealing to a happy medium. Say back in classic and to a lesser extent BC, where the game was more about social interaction and mechanics were mostly minimal because you still had to herd 25-40 people around, grinding and stats and gear mattered. Trying to get people to "clump" in a level/raid and skill range so as many people can interact as possible. If you think you are the most amazing videogame player ever, an RPG isn't for you, go play an FPS. RPG's are designed around gear, and stats more than skill. And people obsessed with "esporting" games have destroyed the playabilty equilibrium of many games recently through that mindset.

Gear is handed out so quickly there is no downtime after hitting max level where you all team up as a bunch to gradually get your basic raid set. That was part of the fun, you had a minor goal you were ALL working towards TOGETHER and the other people in the guild were at various points in their shared goal. Now it happens too fast, you have to go straight into the raid so you can get to the heroic raid to the mythic raid to the hyper mythic raid, the playerbase gets more and more fragmented, no ones goals align, they are all on different treadmills.

No ones going to bother with working towards joining a raid these days, when there are 10 mechanics to watch out for and you are still failing with all the addons running. The far more knowledgable and skilled players pull too far ahead of the rest of the playerbase, they start segregating the playerbase too much. The more the designers reward skill, the wider the gap between players get.

From a player perspective, this is good, because you can showcase your skill. From a game designer standpoint, this is bad, as the smaller percentage of skilled players gradually drive everyone else off and no one plays your game, because you are catering towards expanding the skillcap and spreading out the playerbase so thin no one has anything in common progression wise. You NEED a way to mediate skill levels in an online game. Either through private servers like CS:GO, or through some sort of game mechanics system that keeps players within a predictable range of ability "stats/gear/RNG". You want players to socialize, you want players to have common goals, you want people to work together. And increasing skillcap by increasing raid mechanics and raid levels destroys the population concentration on progression. People zoom far ahead, people are left behind, and you have people alone all along the way.
 
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Zan

kiwifarms.net
I had fun in the stress test and wouldn't mind beta access but I'm not a popular streamer or e-celeb. To be fair, I would report bugs and not focus on getting meaningless world firsts for low level dungeons.
 
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MrTickles

Cultured gentleman but fucks like Bunny.
kiwifarms.net
Me and two friends are over at Elysium classic private servers, finding optimal questing routes in preparation for August launch of classic. Mage, Druid and Warlock combo makes for interesting dungeon runs.

I have beta access but I'm not about to waste my time bumming around capped to level 30 with streamers and their spergling armies of spergs. Asmonsperg can stay right there on his twitch channel where he belongs.
 

GenociderSyo

Syo
kiwifarms.net
I had fun in the stress test and wouldn't mind beta access but I'm not a popular streamer or e-celeb. To be fair, I would report bugs and not focus on getting meaningless world firsts for low level dungeons.
Yea, I'm waiting for 8.2 to go live with the major bug for horde where if you take the silithus port your character spawns underground and you get stuck in a d/c loop. Its been going on months now, but most people dont seem to report bugs.
 

Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
Yea, I'm waiting for 8.2 to go live with the major bug for horde where if you take the silithus port your character spawns underground and you get stuck in a d/c loop. Its been going on months now, but most people dont seem to report bugs.
I think Blizzard's bug reporting system is algorithm driven because I've heard stories about gamebreaking bugs going unfixed despite constant bug reports during beta/ptr testing.

Then there's always the classic blunder of uploading patches that don't include the last series of bug fixes because the game maintenance crew didn't check their e-mail that morning.
 
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JektheDumbass

kiwifarms.net
The only thing I remember from Vanilla is being level 60 for over a year and running instances as often as I could and never getting even one piece of my class set. And my guild absolutely did not have time to help me gear up despite me being literally one of the founding members. So getting a strat/scolo/UBRS group was an undertaking.
 

gobbogobb

Proud to be called "Profoundly Stupid" by Null
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
The only thing I remember from Vanilla is being level 60 for over a year and running instances as often as I could and never getting even one piece of my class set. And my guild absolutely did not have time to help me gear up despite me being literally one of the founding members. So getting a strat/scolo/UBRS group was an undertaking.
I never got my class blue set. My first class armor was T2 from Nefarian.

Disclaimer: priests back then could nearly go naked if they had the class epic staff.
 

JektheDumbass

kiwifarms.net
I was a mage, and I never saw the inside of Blackwing Lair until much later, and I never quite got the hang of Razorgore while solo. I play only sporadically, I quit just before Burning Crusade, then jumped in during Pandaria, then got bored and jumped in for Legion, then got bored with that. I like the story and the zones, but I hit endgame and never have enough friends or a guild that's able and/or willing to do end-game content, so I get bored and quit.
 

gobbogobb

Proud to be called "Profoundly Stupid" by Null
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I was a mage, and I never saw the inside of Blackwing Lair until much later, and I never quite got the hang of Razorgore while solo. I play only sporadically, I quit just before Burning Crusade, then jumped in during Pandaria, then got bored and jumped in for Legion, then got bored with that. I like the story and the zones, but I hit endgame and never have enough friends or a guild that's able and/or willing to do end-game content, so I get bored and quit.
I did server first tier endgame stuff in vanilla and BC a little. It's honestly boring as fuck. The only thing that made it worth it were the other players, and we all sort of realized we didn't need a game to talk to each other.
 
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Poop A Loop

kiwifarms.net
Doesn't WoW Retail have something similar to FF14 where you're encouraged to run lower-level dungeons on a weekly rotation with rewards for doing so that encourage a healthy population for players who are just starting and running previous xpac dungeons? Or am I just imagining things?
 

Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
Doesn't WoW Retail have something similar to FF14 where you're encouraged to run lower-level dungeons on a weekly rotation with rewards for doing so that encourage a healthy population for players who are just starting and running previous xpac dungeons? Or am I just imagining things?
No. Blizzard has retro dungeon events twice a month, but the rewards for doing them don't kick in until max level and the exp for doing them isn't very good. As a result, you'll rarely see lowbies running them. (they're also poorly scaled, so they take roughly twice as long to do them in a retro run than it took back when they were current content)

That said, I've never had trouble finding a group for a leveling dungeon. There's always plenty of people out there leveling an alt.
 

Medicated

Pedophile
kiwifarms.net
Doesn't WoW Retail have something similar to FF14 where you're encouraged to run lower-level dungeons on a weekly rotation with rewards for doing so that encourage a healthy population for players who are just starting and running previous xpac dungeons? Or am I just imagining things?
There is Timewarped? Dungeons that take previous expansion dungeons, uplevel them and offer a currency reward to spend on mounts, pets and gear. Realistically, most players who wanted those rewards completed them in WoD or Legion. That's trying to bandaid a major design philosophy problem IMO.

Back in the old days, you got to level cap, then you worked on getting a dungeon set to start raiding. Once you got that, you could either work on a BiS dungeon set, or move on to raiding, then if you chose, you could work on BiS raid set. Or work on some side activities like old dungeons/raids for achievements, old questlines, etc etc. Once you "completed" a character, with a full set of BiS gear, most people would reroll or just faff around.

These days, when you hit max level, theres no real "cap". In the attempt to keep people playing they have reproduced single player Diablo-like design with an endless mythic 15+ progression. Gear becomes more meaningless as the numbers endlessly increase and you are constantly replacing it. Instead of people all sitting around the same progression path either you are still working on your dungeon set, or you are working on your raid set, they've split the playerbase into so many modes that very few people have common goals.

I'm doing dungeons, you are doing LFR, that guy wants to raid, that guy wants to do Heroic raids, that guy wants to do Mythic +0 that other guy wants to do Mythic 15+. None of us can play together and feel like we are progressing, because we are all on completely different paths now. There's no reason for any of us to interact, even if we are in the same guild.

I don't think many of todays Blizzard designers understand what design philosophy made WoW popular. Except probably Kaplan, if you look at his old Blizzcon speeches. But he's on Overwatch now, and probably being pressured by the higher ups to make more money, push esports.
 
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Tanner Glass

kiwifarms.net
Doesn't WoW Retail have something similar to FF14 where you're encouraged to run lower-level dungeons on a weekly rotation with rewards for doing so that encourage a healthy population for players who are just starting and running previous xpac dungeons? Or am I just imagining things?
No, nothing even close. FFXIV's system was created directly in response to how hated new players are in WoW and how toxic the community is.

For those not in the know, FFXIV incentives veteran players to interact with newer ones.
- There is a special "helping newbies" roulette complete with it's own set of rewards/achievements (Mentor Roulette). This is for players who have completed all content in the game and it will always pair them with a new players.
- There is an additional "helping other players" roulette called Leveling Roulette, which will put you into any dungeon (from level 15 to 70) and is the primary method that new and old players interact. It's also a mechanism to make sure that newer players aren't "stranded" queuing for content that most people aren't normally doing. This awards the high level players with appropriate in game items/currency/experience
- There is (presently, might change in the expansion) a roulette specifically for two raids that are tied into the story (main story quest roulette) that fills a very similar function to leveling roulette.

For all of those roulettes, all players are scaled down to the correct level (including abilities). Early FFXIV dungeons are not remarkably hard and are designed with new players in mind. There are no "newbie traps" (unlike WoW's dungeon layouts of Wailing Caverns and other similar dungeons).

- Additionally, for all content (including Roulettes) if it is someone's first time in it (ex - first time in a dungeon or raid) the entire party is notified that someone might need an explanation. They are also notified that there will be bonus rewards (typically +100% dungeon currency but always a "Second Chance" for the lotto ticket) for finishing the dungeon with the new player. This also includes all max level dungeons and raids.

If you're trying to Min/Max time in FFXIV for most objectives, new players are a valuable resource.

Compared to WoW, it's night and day.

Late EDIT - To be fair to WoW though, at no point is a new player forced to run a dungeon (although it's arguably the most fun part of the early game). In FFXIV some dungeons are mandatory for progression.
 
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Poop A Loop

kiwifarms.net
Well I guess I'll stick with FFXIV, then. I can attest to how useful it was at helping me progress through the content. People were relatively nice and I only really had one or two negative experiences playing as a tank.
 

gobbogobb

Proud to be called "Profoundly Stupid" by Null
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I haven't kept up with ffxiv at all but that sounds awesome and every scaling multiplayer game should copy that shamelessly.
 

Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
I don't read her gibberish language, but apparently a wow streamer is claiming she got banned for saying "naga" on stream.

D8igXzrWkAE9215.png large.png


Also, BfA now officially has a slower patch release cycle than WoD.
 

Oddjob OTP

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Yea, made worse by the fact they did what they did in legion by having Mother commenting about 77 days, like the cultists and their cast bar.
In Blizzard's defense it's not really clear that they meant for 77 cycles to mean "yeah we'll have a patch in 77 days." My understanding at the time was that she was saying that it would take 77 (Azeroth) years for her to figure out what to do about Azeroth dying. Apparently the stuff you do in next patch speeds her up. Anyone who really thought that 8.2 would come out a little over a month after mythic Crucible of Storms did is borderline exceptional.
 
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Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
Release client up on ptr so speculation is that 8.2 will drop on the 25th. (alternative is the 9th, but people think Blizzard wants to undercut FFXIV by releasing first)

There's also some talk of a level squish, which is just about the most asinine thing I have ever heard. Yes, levels don't mean all that much now that there are no spell levels or talent trees, all content scales to your level and there is heirloom gear for nearly every slot, but... there's also no reason to do a level squish. Blizzard isn't going to make it so it takes half as long to level, so the only thing that will change in any level squish is that you'll ding a lot less while you level up. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

Anyone who really thought that 8.2 would come out a little over a month after mythic Crucible of Storms did is borderline exceptional.
To be fair, most people were still under the mistaken impression that Blizzard was a competent developer who could maintain a consistent product release schedule.

Finally, saw this perfect storm of autism on youtube:
peak autism.png
 
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