Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

White phosphorus is mostly used in smoke grenades and smoke rounds for artillery and tanks in NATO to make smoke.
Yes and that's the loophole

No we didn't drop WP on that apartment building in Fallujah to melt all the jihadis inside, we dropped it to screen our movements from the jihadis in that apartment building and they just happened to get melted by it. Many such cases
 
WP is used because it's effective as fuck at melting people holed up inside buildings and bunkers that regular high explosives just rearrange the rubble and don't kill everyone inside

That's why there's a loophole for using it in the laws of war, it's too useful. When they made the rule against using weapons that employ effects like those of WP they deliberately left a loophole a mile wide
There are no real bans on it, actually. Just that you shouldn't use them against civilians, which is the bare minimum I'd expect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Incendiary_Weapons
The protocol prohibits, in all circumstances, making the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. The protocol also prohibits the use of air-delivered incendiary weapons against military targets within a concentration of civilians, and limits the use of incendiary weapons delivered by other means. Forest and other plants may not be a target unless they are used to conceal combatants or other military objectives.

The protocol lists certain munition types like smoke shells which only have a secondary or additional incendiary effect; these munition types are not considered to be incendiary weapons.
Its not so much as a loophole as nobody felt like banning them, just making sure people didn't go hog wild and burn everything to ashes... but of course there's a loophole a mile wide there since if someone puts an ammo dump in a forest its A-OK to burn the forest down so you can see it. Obviously if WW3 broke out it we'd be loading up bombers with napalm bombs for delivery to Moscow because there's no point pretending the treaties matter anymore, but for the limited wars the world currently fights its been sufficient. Unless of course you're Russia, where you wave your nuke dick around and dare people to say anything.
WP in an of itself is not banned, but there are restrictions on it's (or any other incendiaries) use in and around civilian areas that Russia is almost certainly breaking.
Even then there's exceptions that allow its use inside those areas, but Russia is breaking them all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_munitions#International_law
While in general white phosphorus is an industrial chemical not subject to restriction, certain uses in weaponry are banned or restricted by general international laws: in particular, those related to incendiary devices.

Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target". Article 2 of the same protocol prohibits the deliberate use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions), the use of air-delivered incendiary weapons against military targets in civilian areas, and the general use of other types of incendiary weapons against military targets located within "concentrations of civilians" without taking all possible means to minimise casualties.

The convention also exempts certain categories of munitions from its definition of incendiary weapons: specifically, these are munitions which "may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems" and those "designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect."

The use of incendiary and other flame weapons against matériel, including enemy military personnel, is not directly forbidden by any treaty. The United States Military mandates that incendiary weapons, where deployed, not be used "in such a way as to cause unnecessary suffering." The term "unnecessary suffering" is defined through use of a proportionality test, comparing the anticipated military advantage of the weapon's use to the amount of suffering potentially caused.

The Chemical Weapons Convention, sometimes invoked in discussions of WP usage, is meant to prohibit weapons that are "dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare" (Article II, Definitions, 9, "Purposes not Prohibited" c.). The convention defines a "toxic chemical" as a substance "which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals" (CWC, II). An annex lists chemicals that are restricted under the convention, and WP is not listed in the Schedules of chemical weapons or precursors.
The key is A. No aerial bombing of civilian areas with incendiaries and B. use against military targets in civilian areas must ensure civilian casualties are minimized. Which of course are two things Russia gives zero fucks about even pretending to adhere to.
 
Pretty sure the USA used White Phosphorus too from time to time. Of course we tend to not saturation bimb entire residential areas with it either. In fairness to Russia though any civilians who stuck around in Bakhmut knew what they were signing up for.
The irony is that people who usually stays are often the few idiots who believes Russian propaganda and is waiting for "liberators" to come.
 
The T-72 wasn't exactly a game changer and when US got one in the 80's they seemed to be actually puzzled by it. It had no Thermal Imager, mediocre stabilizer, mechanical fire control, the gun was inaccurate and the AP ammunition used steel penetrators instead of tungsten or Depleted uranium. Yeah it had an autoloader, but so what?
Export versions of T-72 did have shittier stabilizers, less advanced composite armor and for T-72A - no ERA mounts. T-72 was also designed as some sort of Volkspanzer to be used in the 2nd-3rd wave. NATO forces, at least in theory, would've ran out of modern tanks by the time T-72s arrive to the front.
Soviet Army group in Germany mostly used 64s and 80s (both more advanced than 72), Ukrainian group (2nd wave) used 64s. After USSR collapsed, Russia was left with thousands of 72s, barely any 64s and some 80s. Later, tank design bureau in SPb went out of business, together with T-80 production lines. T-72 and UralVagonZavod was all that's left.
The worst thing is, designers at UVZ behave like techpriests from Warhammer universe. They reject any attempts to modify this fucking STC of a tank. New engine? - No, just turbocharge V-92 once more (V-92 is a direct descendant of V-2, WWII-era tank engine). Automatic transmission? - No, too complex, not invented here. Turn mechanism? - Heresy! New side gearboxes to get more gears in reverse? - Tanks suppose to advance, comrade! No step back!
 
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The irony is that people who usually stays are often the few idiots who believes Russian propaganda and is waiting for "liberators" to come.
Or they're just stubborn. In his latest video, ukraine_tbic & his team encounter a babushka & her son Oleg who refuse to leave; again, still. This has happened in almost every video of his where they are doing civilian evacuations.
(Skip to 7:00)

This video also has some excellent frontline combat ambience, starting at 12:50.
 

Apologies if this was posted, but this latest of the vids where Lindybeige interviews British volunteer Joe McDonald were excellent. This vid mainly covers the discovery of a very stupid and probably opportunistic Spanish fifth columnist who is either in gaol for life (probably) or SBU left him (deservedly if so) 'resting in a hole to keep him warm' for which Joe got excellent sausage and other treats. Lindybeige is an excellent interviewer and Joe tells his story well. Another focus is how the Ukrainian Armed forces still have a substantial element of Soviet cultural holdovers with few to no NCOs and quite high ranking officers carrying out minor if important tasks that really are better left to enlisted men promoted from the ranks rather than commissioned officers.
 


"Prigozhin today is once again seen explaining how invaluable Wagner is for Russia, and how retreating from Bakhmut will lead to the collapse of the whole Russian front.

Also appears to be hinting at the fact that his mercenaries might find it rather unpleasant if they suspect that Russian authorities set them up by not providing ammo and reinforcements.

Besides. Why is he talking about retreating from Bakhmut at all, if just yesterday he was claiming to have “nearly surrounded” it?" - Wartranslated.

Twitter link
 
View attachment 4700014

"Prigozhin today is once again seen explaining how invaluable Wagner is for Russia, and how retreating from Bakhmut will lead to the collapse of the whole Russian front.

Also appears to be hinting at the fact that his mercenaries might find it rather unpleasant if they suspect that Russian authorities set them up by not providing ammo and reinforcements.

Besides. Why is he talking about retreating from Bakhmut at all, if just yesterday he was claiming to have “nearly surrounded” it?" - Wartranslated.

Twitter link
he is really really really angry at the people in charge of the real army and ministry of defense
 
View attachment 4700014

"Prigozhin today is once again seen explaining how invaluable Wagner is for Russia, and how retreating from Bakhmut will lead to the collapse of the whole Russian front.

Also appears to be hinting at the fact that his mercenaries might find it rather unpleasant if they suspect that Russian authorities set them up by not providing ammo and reinforcements.

Besides. Why is he talking about retreating from Bakhmut at all, if just yesterday he was claiming to have “nearly surrounded” it?" - Wartranslated.

Twitter link
He sounds like somebody who knows far too much, and is far too smart, literate and coherent to not be a real danger to Putin's regime.
He's also having this shitposting/playful side when he trolls the idiots in the Western MSM, he's able to honor enemy soldiers, and is basically living on the front (yes he likely does not fight, but this is 2023, if his coords get leaked he'll get smoked almost surely, so he does accept a serious threat to his life without too much care).
He's unpredictable and has far too many thoughts, far too publicly. Tolerated for now, but he must surely know his days are numbered regardless of his choices. He cannot survive for too long if he remains in Russia's targeting range.
 
he is really really really angry at the people in charge of the real army and ministry of defense
And they are mad at him. He's a prima donna trying to show them up. This relationship is going to be really fun once Ukraine starts pushing back hard in the spring.

On that note, looking at the overall strategic situation, it seems to me Russia is completely screwed. Ukraine is standing up entire Brigades of new troops and outfitting them with western Tanks and Artillery. They've been doing this for months now and holding them in reserve while Russia has been autistically focused on Bakhmut.

Unless something fundamentally changes for Russia soon, they are heading down the "Bad Ending" path of their story.
 
An interesting close look at the construction of a Shahed-131 warhead.

IIRC the original only had a simple HE payload, possibly with a fragmentation component.


The 360° multiple EFP sections suggests intended use against armor & vehicle concentrations, which is highly optimistic given the Shahed's lack of accuracy & Ukrainian habit of not bunching together like a bunch of Russians.

But it'll sure do a number on random apartment blocks, civilian vehicles & hospitals.
 
How come white phosphorous is still used? Isn't it super fucking horrific and inhumane? I thought it was banned by international treaties, not that Russia cares for those.
Edit: Thermite? What for?
A couple of people upthread said that the incendiary used in the video was thermite with magnesium in it and the color of the burning makes me think that's true. As other people also said White Phosphorus is really good at making smoke and the smoke is thermally opaque, hiding stuff behind the cloud from thermal imagery (lol, russians and thermal imagery). I just read on wikipedia that in WW2 Shermans engaging Panthers at long range would fire white phosphorus shells to blind them and cause the crew to probably abandon the tank (into burning white phosphorus. Holy shit that would suck.
 
Its really bizarre how the two threads are so diametrically opposed in reality. According to the Russia thread, they are on the cusp of a stupendous victory that is going to break the back of the Ukrainian Army.

But I am just not seeing it. Russia has spent all winter fighting a single Brigade (the 93rd) that has been dug in in an urban environment, while throwing themselves at entrenched positions in the rural belts guarded by Ukrainian Mobiks. The actual crack forces of the Ukrainian Army still in combat have been fighting in North Kharkiv, around Kremina, not at Bakhmut. While the rest of the Ukrainian regulars have been, well, in Poland, the UK and the USA training on Leapords, Bradleys and Abrams.

The pace of Russia's advance, and the use of human wave attacks means bad news for them the moment Ukraine starts fielding those NATO trained and equipped Armored Brigades. Especially now that the US and EU are at full war time production of ammunition and spare parts. Russia is rapidly running out of time and its amazing to me that they cannot see just how precarious their position is.
 
The anger is not because of either a difference in political opinions or even ethics, it's that they've hitched part of their identity to that side of the conflict. Same reason people fight and riot over sports.
Letting irrelevant shit into your personal identity is stupid. It should be reserved for family, loved ones, and possibly people you're actively working with to accomplish a task (aka camaraderie).
At this point, people on the right simping for Russia are conservative equivalents of "America bad" leftists who were simping for individuals like Pol Pot. If this keeps up they will be pinning for China soon. Gaetz already quoted Chinese propaganda. It hurts to see segments of conservatives becoming more and more like idiots on the left. We are at a point where anyone can gain clout by lousily paying lip service to opposing leftist ideologies.

Preach. Russia could've genuinely tried to make amends with their neighbors, but they only seek to dominate. Especially when it comes to Ukraine, because not having Kiev is their sore spot cuz muh Rus or some shit.
What's especially scary to me is the whole "Ukrainians are actually Russians, they just forgot that they are, so we must do everything that we can in order to make them remember", this "brother nation" and "lost brothers" shit creeps me out. The implication is that they're morally justified in doing anything to Ukrainians because they supposedly don't know any better and that it's necessary for their own good.
Forget the fact that these people existed before Moscow was even established, and have rich history of their own. Russia denies all that, they have effectively erased Ukrainians as people in their minds, and are now trying to do it in a very literal and corporeal sense.

Europe was mired in wars for centuries, yet they found a way to coexist peacefully. France doesn't have to worry about being invaded by British or Germans and vice versa. "I'm scared of NATO" garbage is poor dressing for Russia's imperialism and revanchism. They want to be seen as righteous, despite claiming to not care about what anyone else thinks. I'm sick of the fucking hypocrisy and lies, they can't even be honest about their ambitions. Putin is a diet Yahya Khan.
The whole "brother nations" spiel is nothing new from Russia. Claims of Russia being the rightful descendant of Kievan Rus and trying to restore it to uplift or save fellow descendants of ancient Rus goes back to the 18th century. Catherine the Great uses that sentiment in her "Notes on Russian History" to justify Russian Empire's territorial claims in Ukraine, Poland, and Lithuania.
Later, in 19th and 20th century, Russians used rhetoric of pan-Slavism. All Slavs should be free and working together - under Russian leadership of course. At the same time, Russia mistreated non-Russian Slavs within The Russian Empire. In some cases it was almost as if they were trying to outdo Germans and Ottomans.
Pan-Slavic ideology itself originally started in Balkans. It was focused on Balkan Slavs' cooperation to fight for their interests within, or even freedom from, Austrian and Ottoman empires. Eventually it spread further north to Czechia and elsewhere.
 
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Its really bizarre how the two threads are so diametrically opposed in reality. According to the Russia thread, they are on the cusp of a stupendous victory that is going to break the back of the Ukrainian Army.

But I am just not seeing it. Russia has spent all winter fighting a single Brigade (the 93rd) that has been dug in in an urban environment, while throwing themselves at entrenched positions in the rural belts guarded by Ukrainian Mobiks. The actual crack forces of the Ukrainian Army still in combat have been fighting in North Kharkiv, around Kremina, not at Bakhmut. While the rest of the Ukrainian regulars have been, well, in Poland, the UK and the USA training on Leapords, Bradleys and Abrams.

The pace of Russia's advance, and the use of human wave attacks means bad news for them the moment Ukraine starts fielding those NATO trained and equipped Armored Brigades. Especially now that the US and EU are at full war time production of ammunition and spare parts. Russia is rapidly running out of time and its amazing to me that they cannot see just how precarious their position is.
Ideology is a hell of a drug. I honestly think people tend to get so ideologically dogmatic about western media printing lies and the degenerate shit in western society that they start to assume that literally everything pro-west is a lie, and that everything that is anti-west must be true (or have a significant degree of truth to it). I won't predict how this shit is going to end up, just because war can be incredibly dynamic and Russia could pull a complete occupation out of their ass for all I know, but it becomes really fucking obvious when they excuse or outright deny military shortcomings or failures that have demonstrably occurred. I had faggots in the original thread argue that the push towards Kiev was a feint.

It really is fucking frustrating interacting with them because they're typically ideologically dogmatic, unable to see shit in anything but black and white, dismiss any counter-arguments without real reason, ignore or outright deny any information that contradicts their narrative, drive arguments into unrelated tangents, regularly contradict themselves and deny or dismiss it, typically resort to name-calling and accusations of shilling, and just in general don't argue in good faith. And on top of that, they typically shit up the rest of the site with off-topic politisperging
 
I can't believe that Ukraine launched this war against Russia by having Russia invade Ukraine!
You don't get it! Ukraine made obvious provocations like having nazi PMCs (ignore Prighozins tatoos comrade). Limiting the use of the Russian language (ignore the fact that a sovereign nation has the right to limit what languages are allowed. Also ignore the fact Russia is actively destroying the Belarussian language through its puppet government). There was a coup you see! Don't pay attention to Russian funded coups like Transnistrisa, DNR, LPR, or South Ossetia, those are based and redpilled glownigger coups you see?
 
I just read on wikipedia that in WW2 Shermans engaging Panthers at long range would fire white phosphorus shells to blind them and cause the crew to probably abandon the tank (into burning white phosphorus. Holy shit that would suck.
I was personally told a story where a Sherman spotted a damn TIGER stuck on the spot due to an engine breakdown (apparently this happened a lot to Tigers). Having nothing that could hope to get through their armor the usual way, they pulled back and aimed their main gun like a mortar while some rifleman with Saturn-sized balls spotted for them.

When the AP rounds (which did fuck-all) were landing on the money they lit off every WP shell they had in the racks...and enough of the stuff landed on top that it started melting the goddamn tank.
 
An interesting close look at the construction of a Shahed-131 warhead.

IIRC the original only had a simple HE payload, possibly with a fragmentation component.
View attachment 4700287

The 360° multiple EFP sections suggests intended use against armor & vehicle concentrations, which is highly optimistic given the Shahed's lack of accuracy & Ukrainian habit of not bunching together like a bunch of Russians.

But it'll sure do a number on random apartment blocks, civilian vehicles & hospitals.
They show it impacting objects but not the actual damage to those objects, as far as we can see they invented fancy dust dispensers.
 
A couple of people upthread said that the incendiary used in the video was thermite with magnesium in it and the color of the burning makes me think that's true. As other people also said White Phosphorus is really good at making smoke and the smoke is thermally opaque, hiding stuff behind the cloud from thermal imagery (lol, russians and thermal imagery). I just read on wikipedia that in WW2 Shermans engaging Panthers at long range would fire white phosphorus shells to blind them and cause the crew to probably abandon the tank (into burning white phosphorus. Holy shit that would suck.
The thing about WP is that it likes to stick, so congratulations, your tank is now coated in WP and trailing a gigantic cloud of hot smoke wherever it goes. Even if your tank itself isn't on fire, breathing in the hot fumes sucks and you can't see a damn thing... and the enemy probably has you ranged.

Here's what 100 pounds of WP going off looks like:
1677980928973.png
Yeah, anyone in the blast radius is instantly dead, and anyone out to a long, long way distance is burning to death slowly. Don't mess with it.
I was personally told a story where a Sherman spotted a damn TIGER stuck on the spot due to an engine breakdown (apparently this happened a lot to Tigers). Having nothing that could hope to get through their armor the usual way, they pulled back and aimed their main gun like a mortar while some rifleman with Saturn-sized balls spotted for them.

When the AP rounds (which did fuck-all) were landing on the money they lit off every WP shell they had in the racks...and enough of the stuff landed on top that it started melting the goddamn tank.
Fun fact: US tanks had indirect fire sights for use as artillery pieces from the Sherman all the way to the M60, finally ending with the M1 Abrams being the first that could not be used that way.
 
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