Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[Mister Dongs]

One thing I'll give Ellis is that when he does write superheroes for the paycheck, he at least puts in the effort to tell a sincere story. Works like Iron Man: Extremis, the screenplay for "Dark Heart" on Justice League, Inhumans: Karnak, Doom: 2099, Thunderbolts: Faith in Monsters and even his one-shot on Carnage could at least be described as interesting, engaging stories which don't actively denigrate the characters or the genre and by proxy the customers who picked the title up wanting to read about those things. The bar is so low among comic writers these years that even another Ellis story about Batman or Iron Man talking about their smartphone for three pages is still in high demand.


In other CG-related news, fallen illustrator Noah Bradley wrote up his own experiences about being cancelled last year after a bunch of women accused of him of rape. Noah however did not go full Comicsgate and instead wrote a big apology letter for all the women he "pressured into sex". Surprisingly, this did not expedite his return to mainstream professional circles and now people just spam his explicit admission to being a sexual predator in his twitter replies. Bereft of any hope of redemption, now Bradley has adopted the identity as his own, as "the Cancelled".

https://twitter.com/noahbradley/status/1407003804424355841

https://noahbradley.com/cancelled/

The article itself has a few gems as well, including this Liam-tier rant:

Revenge fantasies

I’m not really proud of this but I’ve fantasized about revenge on some of the people who betrayed me. I’ve got plenty of dirt on plenty of people and could get a lot of them cancelled too. Many of the people who loudly criticized me or stood by the wayside watching it happen did so because they are ashamed of and scared by their own less-than-admirable behavior in the past, and it was incredibly tempting to drag those people down with me.


But it’s not the right thing to do and it’s not the person I want to be. But I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t considered it.

I don't know about you guys but anyone retarded enough to actually put this in writing is someone to watch in my books.

 

[jspit2.0]

Naw. It's been sperging about Dave Filoni and minutiae of the EU in ways that make this thread self included look sane and well balanced.

We are a wholesome thread, thank you very much.

As an aside, it looks like this tweet got deleted, while none of the others in his piracy rant were (yet?). I wonder if Larsen got spoken to about the whole "floundering and failing" thing? (Assuming I'm not just having a Boomer moment and it is still extant, ofc.)
View attachment 2287283

At any rate I think this is the Tweet Nerdrotic responded to:
https://twitter.com/Nerdrotics/status/1405745105001082884

https://archive.md/R8URt

The Larsen tweet he is responding to is gone, and it sure sounds like this is the one in context.

Hey, did you know Gary owned a comic shop? Apparently owning a failing business give him forever geek cred?

Ha. I'm sure admitting failure got him more than a few side looks.

Alright, we are taking the piss out of Nasser (or any other CG writer) yet this page over here is so fucking bad it should have never been published.
Ellis comes of as another failed novelist who became a Comicbook writer - and is uplauded in an industry that has people like Dan Abnett doing C-tier work.

Plus he's from the lesser talented wave of the British Invasion. The early Brits; Alan Davis, Alan Grant, Alan Moore, Chris Claremont, loved American comics and superheroes. To be sure, Moore would try to swipe that love under the rug. But there was a love and even respect for the storied industry they were carpet bagging into.

Same with most of the second wave guys. Gaiman loves DC superheroes despite not being terribly good at writing them, Morrison is a cape and cowl nutter. But second wave onward you started getting these Brit bitches that hated heroes and Capes and clearly disliked American comics. Garth Ennis, Peter Milligan, Jamie Delano. All contemptuous of the things that made American Comics books the giant of the Western comic genre. And that reflected in their work. None of these guys put out top selling books. They had well remembered, genre titles.

Ellis came on the tail end of all this. That last big wave in the early 90s that included Abnett, Gary Frank, and others. He was mostly an editorial darling; harnessing the inner self-hatred of a comic book industry that has forever felt deeply insecure about itself and that hates its history.

I don't think losing Ellis was a loss. Not like the one comics suffered with from talents like Alan Moore degenerating into a nutter or Mark Millar deciding he only wanted to write thread bare, thinly veiled television pitches.

What little of value he had to say about American Comic books was said in the 90s and early 00s. It wasn't terribly original then.

Ellis is a successful comic writer that became a failed novelist.
While he is talented in the area of comic book writing and has many interesting theories and ideas about the future of comics as a medium and the industry as a whole, it's fairly obvious he hates being known for writing comics. He's written at length about his disdain for the ubiquity of the superhero genre but always comes back to get that check. To be fair, he's written many comics that weren't superhero oriented but those don't pay as many bills.

I attended a panel during one of his rare American convention appearances in which he said that Ultimate Fantastic Four would be the very last thing he wrote for Marvel and probably the last mainstream superhero story he would do and he was glad to be done with it. That was in 2004. Needless to say, it was neither the last superhero story he wrote or his last work for Marvel.

One can't blame him for wanting to branch out and seek other outlets for his ideas, but they just aren't getting anywhere. The only thing he's created that had any traction outside comics was the movie adaptation of Red and that was over a decade ago. His Global Frequency pilot never got picked up. He wrote two novels five years apart, the last being published in 2013. Outside of comics, he's probably most known for writing the Castlvania anime.

He needs to stick to writing comics and embrace his role in that area or just shut the fuck up.

I absolutely blame him. His talent, such as it is, dried up over a decade ago. He's stagnated and his contempt for comics is a reason why they are so fucked up. He's not alone. If Geoff Johns had spent more time in the last decade focusing on DC comics and less time trying to play Hollywood mogul, and failing, the comic wouldn't be where it is.

One thing I'll give Ellis is that when he does write superheroes for the paycheck, he at least puts in the effort to tell a sincere story. Works like Iron Man: Extremis, the screenplay for "Dark Heart" on Justice League, Inhumans: Karnak, Doom: 2099, Thunderbolts: Faith in Monsters and even his one-shot on Carnage could at least be described as interesting, engaging stories which don't actively denigrate the characters or the genre and by proxy the customers who picked the title up wanting to read about those things. The bar is so low among comic writers these years that even another Ellis story about Batman or Iron Man talking about their smartphone for three pages is still in high demand.

I would object to Karnak. chronologically the last story you raise was Thunderbolts, which was what? 2007/8?

Ellis has stagnated. His stories don't crack the top ten. He's an editorial darling, which is understandable. But you're right. In an industry where Scott Snyder and Jason Aaron are DC and Marvel's top writing talents; someone like Ellis is a cut above.

In other CG-related news, fallen illustrator Noah Bradley wrote up his own experiences about being cancelled last year after a bunch of women accused of him of rape. Noah however did not go full Comicsgate and instead wrote a big apology letter for all the women he "pressured into sex". Surprisingly, this did not expedite his return to mainstream professional circles and now people just spam his explicit admission to being a sexual predator in his twitter replies. Bereft of any hope of redemption, now Bradley has adopted the identity as his own, as "the Cancelled".

View attachment 2287720

https://twitter.com/noahbradley/status/1407003804424355841

https://noahbradley.com/cancelled/

View attachment 2287711

View attachment 2287716

The article itself has a few gems as well, including this Liam-tier rant:


View attachment 2287755

I don't know about you guys but anyone retarded enough to actually put this in writing is someone to watch in my books.

Interesting.

 

[Mecha]

someone to watch

His wife is probably more interesting to watch, or Ex Wife by this point? She's not only nice to look at, but she took the "Cancelling" pretty hard. At the Start of quarantine she and Noah there were doing cringey Quarantine Outfit of The Day posts and a lot of those reference packs were with each other.

Since the cancel she's been doing weird shit like calling her audience her "lovelies" and got the Captain Marvel Haircut. She also publicly condemned her husband and "separated professionally" from him. Buzzwords like we have a lot of work to do, victims, blah blah

https://twitter.com/ImRachelBradley/status/1276504018987220992?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

The tweet in question is not available or archived, but it is alluded to here

https://articles.starcitygames.com/news/rachel-bradley-issues-statement-condemning-husbands-behavior/

One detail from Noah's cancelling worth noting is the job he had with Wizards of the Coast was probably the biggest thing he lost.

Statement Regarding Noah Bradley

As of today, Wizards is cutting ties with a former Magic artist in order to nurture a safe and fun environment for all.

magic.wizards.com

http://archive.md/PxNQV

Also there was this tweet:

https://archive.vn/wip/oy7DL

His Wikipedia is worth a chuckle:

https://archive.vn/zpa9A

He's also got this Digital Brushpack you can get here "That you can buy"

https://brushes.wtf/


He's either leaned into his cancelling or he's that autistic.

 

[TESTEFY-HD]

What do you think about the new addition to Liam Gray's new TREEHOUSE? He added a escape pod

 

[A nameless trool]

Other way around actually. Like Alan Moore, he was a comicbook writer who became a failed novelist. Ellis doesn't "work" as a novelist because he really has nothing to say as a writer. His books inevitably just become dumping grounds where he puts all the articles and stories he has clipped from the internet together. His work constantly screams "look at me" "look at how smart I am" "look at what I know". But its ultimately empty because he lacks any sort of creativity and the basic skills of a writer. Everything he does either comes from his internet clippings or is derivative of something else. Planetary was the ultimate showcase for his strengths and weaknesses. Every issue featured someone else's characters combined with some stupid story that he clipped from the internet.

I consider Alan Moore a worse novelist than Ellis because his "Jerusalem" book is just so incredibly and somewhat uniquely awful.

Comic book writing generally teaches writers bad habits and all the wrong instincts to have as novel writers. Comic book writers have the same problem adapting their works to novels that YA novel writers had adapting to doing monthly comics. But while the YA writers can adapt by cutting down what they put into the comics work, the comic writers have a tougher time going the other direction because they have to "add" to their usual work to produce acceptable novels.

I have read plenty of Ellis's work and he is quite good for a bargain bin Alan Moore. I really liked his Planetary, Authority and Fell.

I mostly made the post to simp for Abnett, who is woefully overlooked in the comicbook industry.

The article itself has a few gems as well, including this Liam-tier rant:


View attachment 2287755

I don't know about you guys but anyone retarded enough to actually put this in writing is someone to watch in my books.

To quote good old YBZ: Do it, you pussy!

 

[:gold:]

I just watched this video. It's inevitable that when I bestow my grace upon any campaign, allowing it to prosper, an equal and opposite reaction will happen from any number of other struggling campaigns that feel ignored. This is largely why I don't really promote other people's comics, aside from those from my direct circle of pals.

But anything I do will lead to unhappiness from somewhere, worst case scenario, psychopaths who will bitterly stalk me for years.

I'd ask KiwiFarms, under these circumstances, should I promote even fewer CG campaigns, or should I just ignore complaints and promote more campaigns?

Ignore the complaints.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

What do you think about the new addition to Liam Gray's new TREEHOUSE? He added a escape pod
View attachment 2287928

https://tineye.com/search/518ae55533e051d6347842267f042b204c3b92fc?sort=score&order=desc&page=1

 

[Miniluv]

I don't think losing Ellis was a loss. Not like the one comics suffered with from talents like Alan Moore degenerating into a nutter or Mark Millar deciding he only wanted to write thread bare, thinly veiled television pitches.

I absolutely blame him. His talent, such as it is, dried up over a decade ago. He's stagnated and his contempt for comics is a reason why they are so fucked up. He's not alone. If Geoff Johns had spent more time in the last decade focusing on DC comics and less time trying to play Hollywood mogul, and failing, the comic wouldn't be where it is.

Even as an admirer of much of his comic writing, it's plainly obvious to me Ellis really wanted to be a Hollywood guy and became pretty bitter about not getting one of those sweet deals like Millar did. His views on the creative bankruptcy of the industry that brought him to the dance seem hypocritical sitting beside his clear ambition to make it in Hollywood, a place where creative bankruptcy is coin of the realm.

He doesn't even have the added charm of being crazy like Moore. He's just become a sad, drunken cynical sex pest that can't get work in a field he's expressed nothing but contempt for in the last 20 years, even as it fed his family and kept his lights on.

 

[Newman's Own]

At any rate I think this is the Tweet Nerdrotic responded to:

Nerdrotic is right. It is their own damn fault.

What little of value he had to say about American Comic books was said in the 90s and early 00s. It wasn't terribly original then.

I mean his stuff wasn't DAMEGANG or CyberFrog level writing but I liked most of Ellis's stuff superheroes and otherwise.

He doesn't even have the added charm of being crazy like Moore. He's just become a sad, drunken cynical sex pest that can't get work in a field he's expressed nothing but contempt for in the last 20 years, even as it fed his family and kept his lights on.

Yeah, still gonna check out his new Fell stuff when it comes out.

I figure there's a good chance it will be better than Trixie Cain, Monster MD or Downcast.

You know, not shit.

 

[Miniluv]

I figure there's a good chance it will be better than Trixie Cain, Monster MD or Downcast.

This is all but certain.
I'm still a fan of his work and have no doubt pretty much anything he half-asses his way through is probably better than most stuff Marvel and DC are shitting out, to say nothing of the current crop of crowdfunded books.
It's just kind of sad what's become of him.

 

[Mecha]

Mercury Is No Longer In Retrograde

Oh no! Communication across the globe up until yesterday has been difficult! The planet mercury was spinning really fucking fast. Well as a parting shot it took one of the finest culture warriors off the platform of choice for the culturally dissident.

https://archive.vn/57toa

Heels vs baby face was the latest victim in the Consoomer wars struggle, it takes Mercury 88 days to orbit the sun, and unfortunately for AZ it apparently took Twitter from him as it continued on it's cosmic journey.

https://twitter.com/heelvsbabyface

He was apparently banned for quoting Game of Thrones "All men must die" @'ing Marvel and the creative team of World War She Hulk. Jason Aaron at least wrote one of the best modern Thor Comics and is what the next solo Thor film is based on. The Gorr the Godbutcher storyline and unfortunately the Girl Thor followup. Gorr is rumored to be the villain for "Love and Thunder"



Holy fuck that's awful to look at.

AZ took to the Tubes in order to address the situation

BANNED From TWITTER: You WOULDN'T BELIEVE WHY!! (well.. you would)

It finally happened. HeelvsBabyface has been permanently suspended from Twitter! You will never believe why!! Well, if you know anything to do with Twitter t...

www.youtube.com

This is the first time I've ever watched an Az video and it's about what I thought. It's about as bad seeing the amount of people complaining about the ban. With Gifs and plenty of @'ing of the various Twitter teams responsible for banning people. As if they'd listen.

Also caught in the ringing of the twitter bells is apparently Nerdrotic himself and Eric "Fuck them hoe ass roads" July who, while not banned are under some sort of days long suspension

https://archive.vn/omSjn

I could show you the various replies railing against this injustice, but I'll just single out "LadyGravemaster"

https://archive.vn/OkHgb

You hear that Bird App?! IMMEDIATELY!!! This is the great battle of our time!!!

Anti Consoomer culture at it's finest. What's particularly funny to me is the base will work themselves into a frenzy for this, complain about twitter, and all the content that sucks and then use quotes and gifs from said content on Twitter's platform as their rallying cry. You almost can't critique the anti-sjw movement anymore. Whatever faults you find on it will not be heard by the audience. They are 100% on board as long as you hit the big talking points
-SJW Bad
-Woke content bad
-Wahmen ruin everything
-The Last Jedi was bad

They're still consooming. They just found someone to slap their own team's logo on it.

I hate woke entertainment too, I just hate it enough I don't take any interest in talking about it for 5 hour livestreams. Conservative Thinkers, Anti-Sjws, and anyone who doesn't vote downticket Democrat is merely a guest on twitter. This kind of thing shouldn't be a surprise anymore.

Despite some calls for leaving the Conservative paradise that is Twitter, and to the gif replies of many in the audience, a new account has popped up

https://twitter.com/heelsvsbabyface/with_replies

https://archive.vn/LS7ef

Maybe an obviously facetious reply, or Az the Anti-Consoomer couldn't go more than a few hours without crawling back to consoom more Bird App. Az decrying twitter as a "Cesspit of filth, let's just be honest" and admitting the hypocrisy in using social media asks us to follow him on instagram during his twitter exile.

Is it a grand conspiracy to influence society and the culture on a macro scale? Maybe, but for now it's at the very least a left leaning website with owners and administrators enforcing their leftist viewpoints and agendas. Whatever good you think you're doing for a "Culture War" isn't going to go very far on Twitter.

Pour one out for the homie?

The planet Mercury much like twitter rules communication in all forms—listening, writing, reading, speaking, and so on—as well as activities closely related to communication, like negotiations and contracts. It also rules travel, automobiles, shipping, and mail.

Mercury Retrograde Dates for 2021

Mercury will be in retrograde motion between May 29 and June 22, 2021. It's thought that when Mercury is in retrograde, it can greatly influence your mood and actions. What does Mercury retrograde really mean?

www.almanac.com

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

Holy fuck that's awful to look at.

Still looks way better than 499.

 

[Miniluv]

Substack's comic book problems are just getting started.

Not exactly CG related, but a new article from famed internet trash heap Inverse is playing into the cancellation of Nick Spencer, doing everything they can to paint him as some sort of right wing extremist.
The gist is that Spencer is involved with Substack's nascent foray into comics publishing and since Substack hosts work from several writers that have quit or been cancelled from mainstream platforms (such as Glenn Greenwald and Graham Linehan) then it obviously means Substack is about to publish tons of anti-trans Nazi comics.

They talk to sometime comic artist Cully Hamner whose main problem seems to be that the Substack program only considers writers as "creators", lamenting that artists aren't able to get in on the anti-trans Nazi comic grift, I guess. Maybe he should team back up with Warren Ellis. Other creators don't seem to know or care what the hell is going on with this.

Other writers and artists Inverse reached out to declined to comment, mostly due to a lack of understanding of Substack's new business model, or the company itself.

“I don’t even know what a Substack is,” says one comics creator. “This and NFTs are all a mystery to me,” jokes another.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Substack's comic book problems are just getting started.

Not exactly CG related, but a new article from famed internet trash heap Inverse is playing into the cancellation of Nick Spencer, doing everything they can to paint him as some sort of right wing extremist.
The gist is that Spencer is involved with Substack's nascent foray into comics publishing and since Substack hosts work from several writers that have quit or been cancelled from mainstream platforms (such as Glenn Greenwald and Graham Linehan) then it obviously means Substack is about to publish tons of anti-trans Nazi comics.

They talk to sometime comic artist Cully Hamner whose main problem seems to be that the Substack program only considers writers as "creators", lamenting that artists aren't able to get in on the anti-trans Nazi comic grift, I guess. Maybe he should team back up with Warren Ellis. Other creators don't seem to know or care what the hell is going on with this.

 

[MirrorNoir]

Even as an admirer of much of his comic writing, it's plainly obvious to me Ellis really wanted to be a Hollywood guy and became pretty bitter about not getting one of those sweet deals like Millar did. His views on the creative bankruptcy of the industry that brought him to the dance seem hypocritical sitting beside his clear ambition to make it in Hollywood, a place where creative bankruptcy is coin of the realm.

This bitterness was most apparent by the way he treated Planetary. Remember; Ellis GAVE AUTHORITY TO MILLAR because he thought Planetary was his ticket to Hollywood and mega stardom. But Millar was able to use the hype Authority got outing Midnighter and Apollo as gay to become the biggest name in comics and cross over to Hollywood, while Ellis struggled mightily and ended up super resentful of Planetary as time went on because he picked the wrong fucking horse.

 

[Greed]

Treehouse Update: Liam shaved his head and now resembles a large infant.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Treehouse Update: Liam shaved his head and now resembles a large infant.

I guess the brain tumor won.

 

[Mister Dongs]

Still looks way better than 499.

I don't know what you're talking about, Stinky looks well on his way towards winning an Eisner. Just look at the faces of his guests. BOOYAH FOR NARZACK.

Anyways, the war to stop Warren Ellis from returning to comics (since he can't hack it as a screenwriter) continues to rage, much to the indifference of what remains of Comicsgate.

Over at Heidi McDonald's ComicsBeat, "freelance comics marketing consultant" (read: cancel culture shakedown artist) Tara Ferguson wrote this melodramatic call that, quote, "the comics industry is once again caught up in the horror that is Warren Ellis."

https://www.comicsbeat.com/the-short-lived-damnation-of-warren-ellis-and-the-danger-it-creates/

The website went live on July 13th, 2020.

It is now June 23rd 2021. In the time since everything went public, we have all lived through a pandemic, a Brexit, and the inauguration of a new US president. The world has continued to spin. We lived. Warren went dark. There had been no sign of him for almost a year, and then suddenly earlier this week he decided now was the time to creep back out of whatever dark hole he had scuttled away to.

It has now been documented that Warren is returning to comics. He and his former collaborator Ben Templesmith have revealed that they will be continuing their title Fell, published by Image Comics, which has not seen the light of the new comics shelves in over 15 years. There is A LOT to dissect when it comes to this sudden return. I am going to do my best to lay it all out here.


It all begins with an announcement. This was a fly-by reveal, there was no press release, no balloons and banners on Twitter. This was calculated and quiet. It was an Instagram post from Templesmith, that linked to a Patreon post, detailing that the book was returning, Warren was writing it and Image Comics are publishing it. It was also the same day that the other Warren Ellis, the musician, released a new album with Nick Cave, so when searching names on Twitter, the discussion surrounding the album drowns out the book. There has yet to be anything “officially” said on Twitter, which is the main discussion site for comics. This may have changed however, as Templesmith has since blocked me.

Indeed there seems to be a lot of that going around as the SJW twitter mob finds themselves on the receiving end of mass blocks from a mainstream comics professional, something they find completely unprecedented and also totally intolerable. Look, even Renfamous is Comicsgate now.

https://twitter.com/renfamous/status/1407818568805330952

https://mobile.twitter.com/essarrsee/status/1407734524990181376

https://mobile.twitter.com/neurovagrant/status/1407505361460891652

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/status/1408143391116959744

Top DC writer Scott Snyder here talks about how they cancelled Ellis from the DC's Death Metal event in response to the allegations, followed by linking to the somanyofus.org website of roastie regret, which if anything was a mixed blessing in regards to Ellis' legacy.

The first to give a public reaction (at least on Youtube) was Frog, screenshots handy from somewhere, crashes into a Shane Davis livestream, titled Hello-Stream where he, expectant wife Yanzi Lee and trusty henchman Leroi were lazily mulling over some tweet abut Disney casting some black woman as Snow White. Frog goes off about how Graeme McMillian and Rich Johnston openly talking about coordinating Image's creators to collectively force Image to fire Ellis and how "private DM groups and discords are going alive" proves everything he said was true, that this is the proof that their claiming he was simply fired was merely gaslighting, that they do engage in coordinated campaigns to blacklist people like himself from the industry. Which it is.

Shane confesses about how he was caught off guard with this news and then mumbles out some empty triviality about how he thought that Marvel and DC comics were going to simply stop reprinting work that Ellis would get royalties on. Frog makes a call to action, that while getting drunk and reading superchats and tweets by SJWs in two in the morning is fun, that Comicsgate was originally something about making a stand against cancel culture. It's now Leroi's turn to express genuine confusion; as one of the late "fourth wave" of Comicsgaters only familiar with the movement as a clique of idle, insular "chillstreams" within which one networks and chase clout in. Leroi has been fairly successful in this, going so far as to rise to the lofty position of backup tardwrangler of Shane Davis, but has clear difficulties in conceptualizing Comicsgate as anything other than this. "So what are we gonna do?" Leroi asks Frog, "Are we gonna buy Warren Ellis' comic or something?" Frog answers that they'll eventually succeed in cancelling Ellis and that Comicsgate should be ready for when he turns to crowdfunding. Exasperated at the dull silence his speech fell upon, Frog quiets down as Shane loads the SJW black Snow White tweet back up for another half hour droning on the single tweet. Disney should have casted Snow White on merit instead of trying to appeal to the diversity crew. Get woke go broke!

Michael Bancroft with guest Von Klaus was the first to have a show fully dedicated to the topic, which is mostly a solid primer about Ellis' sex scandal that most people reading this thread already know (but if you aren't, this is a good enough introduction). This stream didn't really reveal anything new though, and was mostly notable for the sign Von Klaus, having very belatedly fulfilled Monster M.D., looks to be returning to Comicsgate shows once again.

Clint Stoker made this video about him concern trolling Evan Dorkin about the terms and conditions of surrender Ellis must do to appease his jilted roasties. It's really long though so that's about it.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

Treehouse Update: Liam shaved his head and now resembles a large infant.

Look it's uncle Fester in a batman hoodie!

....or the fat gay monk from The Name of the Rose

 

[Rupin]

Treehouse Update: Liam shaved his head and now resembles a large infant.

He looks like an old man now.