YABookgate -

Piga Dgrifm

Where are those good old fashioned values?
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
So glad I found this thread, because I really dislike these morons. I especially hate the "OwnVoices" nonsense, because they scream about wanting representation of all kinds in every book, and no one author is going to be all minorities at once, but they'll throw tantrums if the author isn't the same as all their characters. And, if someone writes a book, they shouldn't be forced to out themselves as gay/trans/etc. and list any mental health issues they have to avoid the shrieking. They shouldn't be barred from using a pen name to prove that their skin is the same color as their character's. I just don't understand it. You can write about a thing without being that thing. That's been accepted since storytelling was invented. Shakespeare was not the prince of Denmark, so I guess he should have been publicly flogged for writing Hamlet.
 

ATaxingWoman

Stefannie Lööfven, Professional Tax Investigator
kiwifarms.net
This is WOKE as fuck https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41473872-i-wish-you-all-the-best?from_search=true
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View attachment 752708
Imagine advocating for white people to not write about non white settings, right after preaching about Muh Diversity.
I'd like to see this person try to write her own novel (it's a "not like other girls UwU" enby) only to end up facing the exact same type of NOT WOKE ENOUGH criticism that she directs towards others. We all know it would happen.

Gotta love this reply to her review, by the way
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Kosoko Jackson, for those of you who don't know or remember who he is, is another YA author who withdrew his book after facing backlash for not being #woke enough (ironically, he used to work as a sensitivity reader for YA publishers and even said on one occasion that women shouldn't be allowed to "profit from stories about gay men"). https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/ya-book-scandal-kosoko-jackson-a-place-for-wolves-explained.html
 

SpeedOSanicRee

kiwifarms.net
I'd like to see this person try to write her own novel (it's a "not like other girls UwU" enby) only to end up facing the exact same type of NOT WOKE ENOUGH criticism that she directs towards others.
I'd love to see them write a book, period. It seems that much of the time the people screeching the most about this shit aren't even authors. Like, you think you can do it better? Go ahead. You write a book 'properly' and get it published with zero outcry and then we'll talk.
 

Kari Kamiya

Dopey Mew
kiwifarms.net
I almost missed "SJW" in the title because Mary Sues has been a blight on literature since forever, but it's been taken notice of since Star Trek fanzines were a thing. And the reason there are so many Mary Sues is because of amateur writing (most common in fan fiction, which is where Mary Sues were first "recorded" or at least labeled), and self-powering fantasy combined with amateur writing. Fangirls want to be with their favorite fictional character(s), maybe even want to fuck them because no one else will love them in real life, but they have no other outlet to do it than in fanfiction, and quality control is non-existent.

SJWs never outgrew of their fanfiction days and never learned to take criticism without throwing bitchfits. It's the same old song and dance just in a different coat of paint and it's become much more malicious.

(I don't have the time, so I'll check the video later to see if I hit all the same points or missed by a long shot.)
 

SpeedOSanicRee

kiwifarms.net

This describes 90% of YA protagonists
I agree with that video. SJW Mary Sues are a bit different from standard ones. And that slight difference makes them worse somehow.
I almost missed "SJW" in the title because Mary Sues has been a blight on literature since forever, but it's been taken notice of since Star Trek fanzines were a thing. And the reason there are so many Mary Sues is because of amateur writing (most common in fan fiction, which is where Mary Sues were first "recorded" or at least labeled), and self-powering fantasy combined with amateur writing. Fangirls want to be with their favorite fictional character(s), maybe even want to fuck them because no one else will love them in real life, but they have no other outlet to do it than in fanfiction, and quality control is non-existent.
Honestly, I feel like Mary Sues are a tie for the worst character archetype, the other being the exact opposite--a villain with zero redeeming qualities. Then neither character is relatable and instead of developing an attachment, you just want to throw the book away.

A Mary Sue exists mainly as one thing: a self-insert wish fulfillment character. The thing these writers don't understand is that you can't just insert some random character into the story to live vicariously through. Even if you have an original story idea and it's not just some fanfic with the serial numbers filed off, having a character with no real flaws is going to kill the story. Look at something like Twilight. I almost guarantee you the biggest reason it was hated was the two main characters being Mary Sues. It doesn't make for good or relatable writing. It just makes for hot garbage. The fact that so many of the stories with Mary Sues, esp SJW ones, were written by women who are older than 13 is just plain sad.
 

Piga Dgrifm

Where are those good old fashioned values?
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I've seen a few posts stating that calling a character a Mary Sue is muh soggy knees, that anyone who uses the term to criticize something is trying to silence women, and that Mary Sues are actually good and empowering because patriarchy.
 
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Someone in a Tree

It's the ripple, not the sea that is happening
kiwifarms.net
I've seen a few posts stating that calling a character a Mary Sue is muh soggy knees, that anyone who uses the term to criticize something is trying to silence women, and that Mary Sues are actually good and empowering because patriarchy.
People who feel that way are simple thinkers who don't like to be challenged when they read, which is why they read shit intended for teenagers
 

SpeedOSanicRee

kiwifarms.net
I've seen a few posts stating that calling a character a Mary Sue is muh soggy knees, that anyone who uses the term to criticize something is trying to silence women, and that Mary Sues are actually good and empowering because patriarchy.
Bullshit. There is a HUGE difference between a strong female lead and a female lead who is just there as a self-insert wet dream.
People who feel that way are simple thinkers who don't like to be challenged when they read, which is why they read shit intended for teenagers
This. To be honest, it does take some level of complex thinking to be able to really connect to a protagonist who is deeply flawed. When you have this protagonist who is broken and isn't perfect, it can be harder to sympathize. I think a good novel is the type where both the antagonist and protagonist have good and bad qualities, sometimes even to the extent that the 'unlikable narrator' trope comes in. It really makes you think. Something these people can't seem to do. It's much easier to just get behind a character with zero flaws beyond maybe not knowing how perfect they are.
 

Marco Fucko

Freak a flow and flow fancy free.
kiwifarms.net
It's much easier to just get behind a character with zero flaws beyond maybe not knowing how perfect they are.
It really does suck that that's the case. It's something special when you see yourself in a character, but it isn't a virtue like humility or kindness. The first time around you might not even really know what the feeling is, but you mull it over and understand that there is this darker side to you, and this shitty protagonist or sympathetic villain has a piece of themselves that you are familiar with.

But no, thinking is bad. It gives me a headache.
 
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SpeedOSanicRee

kiwifarms.net
It really does suck that that's the case. It's something special when you see yourself in a character, but it isn't a virtue like humility or kindness. The first time around you might not even really know what the feeling is, but you mull it over and understand that there is this darker side to you, and this shitty protagonist or sympathetic villain has a piece of themselves that you are familiar with.

But no, thinking is bad. It gives me a headache.
This is probably why so many YA characters are a blank slate. To bring up Twilight again, Bella Swan was purposely barely described. It's so that people can insert themselves. Way easier to do when characters are so vague that almost anyone can relate to the protagonist.

When you throw in a curveball, like an unlikable narrator or a villain who is morally ambiguous, it requires more brain power and who wants that, amirite?
 

Next Task

kiwifarms.net
Honestly, I feel like Mary Sues are a tie for the worst character archetype, the other being the exact opposite--a villain with zero redeeming qualities.
Honestly though, if one were to think about writing a book where a version of one of many of our lolcows were the villain, they'd come across as exactly that.

Imagine a book with Jake Alley as the villain. To not meet that archetype, you'd actually have to write him as a better person than he is. And he's a milder example of some of the more horrific cows who really are that bad.
 

SpeedOSanicRee

kiwifarms.net
Honestly though, if one were to think about writing a book where a version of one of many of our lolcows were the villain, they'd come across as exactly that.

Imagine a book with Jake Alley as the villain. To not meet that archetype, you'd actually have to write him as a better person than he is. And he's a milder example of some of the more horrific cows who really are that bad.
Yeah, but I personally couldn't handle reading something like that. I know some could, but I've actually been unable to get into certain movies and TV shows (Once Upon a Time springs to mind) because the villain was so evil just for the sake of being evil. Zero redeeming qualities, no real motivation to be evil other than to just be a psychopath. I don't think I could read a book where the villain is like that. Maybe some can, but I just...couldn't.
 
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Save the Loli

kiwifarms.net
Honestly, I feel like Mary Sues are a tie for the worst character archetype, the other being the exact opposite--a villain with zero redeeming qualities. Then neither character is relatable and instead of developing an attachment, you just want to throw the book away.
I disagree. There's good stories where the villain is an absolutely irredeemable monster. It's not an inherently bad archetype. A Mary Sue on the other hand can never be played straight. The only reason to ever write one is as a parody of the concept (like Mary Sue herself),
I've seen a few posts stating that calling a character a Mary Sue is muh soggy knees, that anyone who uses the term to criticize something is trying to silence women, and that Mary Sues are actually good and empowering because patriarchy.
Probably because their precious characters keep getting called out for being Mary Sues. I never once heard about the term Mary Sue being sexist until some exceptional thinkpiece article shilling for Disney Star Wars said that calling Rey a Mary Sue was proof of sexism. These people are incapable of taking responsibility for anything, and that includes their shit writing. Their only response is to blame it all on conspiracies of racists and sexists and what not.
 

Maggots on a Train v2

new and improved account
kiwifarms.net
I'm judging that book by its cover.
756115

Zero skill traced photo, it looks like something off wikihow. They tried to be Patrick Nagel, but had no idea which details to leave off, or which colors to use.
I agree with that video. SJW Mary Sues are a bit different from standard ones. And that slight difference makes them worse somehow.

Honestly, I feel like Mary Sues are a tie for the worst character archetype, the other being the exact opposite--a villain with zero redeeming qualities. Then neither character is relatable and instead of developing an attachment, you just want to throw the book away.

A Mary Sue exists mainly as one thing: a self-insert wish fulfillment character. The thing these writers don't understand is that you can't just insert some random character into the story to live vicariously through. Even if you have an original story idea and it's not just some fanfic with the serial numbers filed off, having a character with no real flaws is going to kill the story. Look at something like Twilight. I almost guarantee you the biggest reason it was hated was the two main characters being Mary Sues. It doesn't make for good or relatable writing. It just makes for hot garbage. The fact that so many of the stories with Mary Sues, esp SJW ones, were written by women who are older than 13 is just plain sad.
It still amazes me that people past middle school think anybody wants to read a let's play of them driving a character around in god mode.
 
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