Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[Unverified]

In your opinion what are some of the best and worst books of CG? You mentioned that City of Venus was one of them and articulated why fairly well, I'm curious what others you've backed that you feel are subpar.

I'd love to do a more in-depth post here, but for now I'll just go off the top of my head. The worst books in my opinion are Magic Cop and The Lost Pages. Phil Diaz really has absolutely no business writing comics, but hey, he's been moderately successful so that's great. Those two books will share the number one spot for worst book. Although, at least The Lost Pages had a few talented artists on it. The same cannot be said for Magic Cop. Some others, in no particular order, would include College of the Dead (both), Doc Salem, Wart the Wizard, Super Dead, Tribulation Taskforce, Black Tiger: Legacy of Fury, SeaDog and Codename Killswitch, Pillowman and Blanketboy, Super Harem, and probably many more that I've brain-dumped. I'll have to rifle through my CG collection at some point. But these are the books that stood out in my mind as unforgivably low-quality. I tend to judge writing with the most critical lens, followed by artwork, so most of these are books that I consider to be abject failures in narrative structure, dialogue, etc. primarily, though several of them have piss-poor art as well.

As far as the best books go, that may be a bit easier. Good books in CG are few and far between. I'll start with Battle Maiden Knuckle Bomb. It is actually a pretty close approximation to a modern manga and is pretty fun. Keung Lee clearly understands manga and is able to replicate it, unlike Liam Gray (though I'll admit Xenotype doesn't make it into the worst; it's lower mid-tier). I also enjoyed CyberFrog Blood Honey well enough. Narwhal's books are pretty damn good as well. Your mileage may vary on his art style, but he is definitely a better storyteller than most. I also like how expressive his art is, so it works fine for me. Kamen America has become a favorite of mine recently, though not strictly "CG." I also thought the first Vestige was pretty solid and promising, but the second one dropped tremendously.

The harsh reality is that CG just isn't providing a viable alternative to mainstream comics in terms of quality books. I know people want to believe otherwise, but we're not there yet. And I know Marvel and DC mostly put out trash these days anyways (I'm still in the comic shops every week and fairly in tune with what's being released). But CG isn't going to cut it if we keep pumping out garbage and pretending it's gold. I have been a die-hard believer in CG for well over two years now, but the vast majority of what's being delivered is just shit. It's for reasons like this that I respect Ethan's decision to lessen his promotion of low-quality books (like Stealing Solo, why are you promoting that shit) and his expanding of ALL CAPS with actual talent and (hopefully) quality books like Snowman, Starblades, and Creed. If CG is going to prosper in the long run, it can't just be reactionary outrage to the mainstream. It can't be spite campaigns fueled by disdain for other indie creators. It has to be quality books. We need to separate the wheat from the chaff and actually build something better than what's out there. I've spent thousands on CG books in the past couple of years, but my spending is getter tighter all the time. I'm tired of giving second chances to people at this point. If you aren't coming out the gate with your best fucking work, I've got no time for you. I won't be backing people like the Diaz brothers, Mandy Summers, or Adam Post in the future, because they've proven to me that they can't create. For CG to work, creators have to get their shit together, edit their books, deliver on time, and hire ACTUAL WRITERS.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Thanks, edited. Somehow the link got mangled.
The change is subtle. First is was all dorky and fun, that's changing into something different. For instance around the 5 minute mark.

"Supplements"

 

[A nameless trool]

Realized it's been quite a while since I checked out a Boring Zack vid so I just watched the latest (ZERO PIPELINE- Splatto Comics Is Bringing ALL Fulfillment Back In-House)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43ysFhK7DAU

If somebody told me he is an adderall junkie I"d believe it. This is turning out to be quite the shitshow. Very disturbing signals.

YBZ:

 

[TheCosmicWarrior]

Or are you more honest and wise, more cosmopolitan and broad-/fair-minded, like our forum favourite @TheCosmicWarrior, who joins us in agreement that the Image stuff was crap and Eurocomics are just objectively better?

Please everyone read Valerian by Jean-Claude Mezieres and Pierre Christin. I'm going to be moving in this direction for the next project after Deus Vult. It's just a whole other level in comic book storytelling.

 

[Newman's Own]

I'd love to do a more in-depth post here, but for now I'll just go off the top of my head. The worst books in my opinion are Magic Cop and The Lost Pages. Phil Diaz really has absolutely no business writing comics, but hey, he's been moderately successful so that's great. Those two books will share the number one spot for worst book. Although, at least The Lost Pages had a few talented artists on it. The same cannot be said for Magic Cop. Some others, in no particular order, would include College of the Dead (both), Doc Salem, Wart the Wizard, Super Dead, Tribulation Taskforce, Black Tiger: Legacy of Fury, SeaDog and Codename Killswitch, Pillowman and Blanketboy, Super Harem, and probably many more that I've brain-dumped. I'll have to rifle through my CG collection at some point. But these are the books that stood out in my mind as unforgivably low-quality. I tend to judge writing with the most critical lens, followed by artwork, so most of these are books that I consider to be abject failures in narrative structure, dialogue, etc. primarily, though several of them have piss-poor art as well.

As far as the best books go, that may be a bit easier. Good books in CG are few and far between. I'll start with Battle Maiden Knuckle Bomb. It is actually a pretty close approximation to a modern manga and is pretty fun. Keung Lee clearly understands manga and is able to replicate it, unlike Liam Gray (though I'll admit Xenotype doesn't make it into the worst; it's lower mid-tier). I also enjoyed CyberFrog Blood Honey well enough. Narwhal's books are pretty damn good as well. Your mileage may vary on his art style, but he is definitely a better storyteller than most. I also like how expressive his art is, so it works fine for me. Kamen America has become a favorite of mine recently, though not strictly "CG." I also thought the first Vestige was pretty solid and promising, but the second one dropped tremendously.

The harsh reality is that CG just isn't providing a viable alternative to mainstream comics in terms of quality books. I know people want to believe otherwise, but we're not there yet. And I know Marvel and DC mostly put out trash these days anyways (I'm still in the comic shops every week and fairly in tune with what's being released). But CG isn't going to cut it if we keep pumping out garbage and pretending it's gold. I have been a die-hard believer in CG for well over two years now, but the vast majority of what's being delivered is just shit. It's for reasons like this that I respect Ethan's decision to lessen his promotion of low-quality books (like Stealing Solo, why are you promoting that shit) and his expanding of ALL CAPS with actual talent and (hopefully) quality books like Snowman, Starblades, and Creed. If CG is going to prosper in the long run, it can't just be reactionary outrage to the mainstream. It can't be spite campaigns fueled by disdain for other indie creators. It has to be quality books. We need to separate the wheat from the chaff and actually build something better than what's out there. I've spent thousands on CG books in the past couple of years, but my spending is getter tighter all the time. I'm tired of giving second chances to people at this point. If you aren't coming out the gate with your best fucking work, I've got no time for you. I won't be backing people like the Diaz brothers, Mandy Summers, or Adam Post in the future, because they've proven to me that they can't create. For CG to work, creators have to get their shit together, edit their books, deliver on time, and hire ACTUAL WRITERS.

There is no incentive to fix the issues you have in CG so long as the model as it exists right now keeps working for enough people.

Having a good writer like Dixon on a book doesn't seem to increase sales but it does increase the cost. Would it be good to have pros fine tune character and story ideas on first projects? Of course but it doesn't seem to translate into extra support for 1st campaigns so it's hard for creators to give up control of their babies and their margins when it seems to only cost them on their bottom line. Editors are the same deal.

People aren't paying for the product in CG for the most part. They're supporting a personality they like or "owning the libs" or supporting an artist they admire. When the product arrives and is subpar there is probably buyers remorse. Having purchased RedRooster and DownCast (because I liked the art or the "writer") I can say I have buyers remorse. But it's always been the case that art gets people to pick up the book and compelling stories get them to come back for more. Creators have a hard time sharing with writers when it's in hopes it will pay off two or three books down the line but it digs into their margins now.

Image had a similar problem back in the day. People bought the books for the art or to support the stars but many readers like myself soon walked away because of inpenetrable or just plain lousy writing.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

There is no incentive to fix the issues you have in CG so long as the model as it exists right now keeps working for enough people.

Having a good writer like Dixon on a book doesn't seem to increase sales but it does increase the cost. Would it be good to have pros fine tune character and story ideas on first projects? Of course but it doesn't seem to translate into extra support for 1st campaigns so it's hard for creators to give up control of their babies and their margins when it seems to only cost them on their bottom line. Editors are the same deal.

The complaints you guys are making about shit books being made is a feature of CG, not a bug. There are no gatekeepers to green-light or red-light titles in the self-publishing space, anyone can start a crowd-fund. That's the price you have to pay for removing the gatekeepers in the woke corporate world.

Weren't you one of the ones complaining when Frog shifted away from hyping the unknowns and the books he didn't personally think were any good in favor of known quantities?

People aren't paying for the product in CG for the most part. They're supporting a personality they like or "owning the libs" or supporting an artist they admire. When the product arrives and is subpar there is probably buyers remorse.

That's how business works all over the place, not just CG. Hell, you think people were buying the garbage published by the Big Brands the past few years based on it's quality or to "own the patriarchy" or "own the white-supremacists"?

 

[Kelsey]

Call that an autism post??
View attachment 1990760

@Kelsey, you old shagger, welcome! Not to immediately 'grill' you with sperg matters, but where do you stand on the Malinian Proposition that Rob Liefeld is a great artist?

This is hilarious! Thanks for asking. HAHA!

Short answer: No, Rob Liefeld is not a "great artist"

I know @FROG has distanced himself from these controversial statements by Malin, though they both still jack furiously to Todd McFarlane, and I believe you do too, despite the hilarious reality-based fact that Todd himself carefully ignores Comicsgate while jacking furiously to the storytelling skills of hated anti-CG supervillain, Doug TenNapel. (Who is still the leading Doug in anti-CG currently, though with hot competition from your pal, Doug Ernst, and also The Man Who Shot Cyberfrog With An Actual Gun, Doug Garret)

I don't look at that stuff often, so it hasn't gotten as stale for me as it might have for others. Neither Liefeld or McFarlane are particularly good draftsmen, but they bring the heat. In the type of comics they were doing, that's what mattered. The fun. If only they had a story to match. This is all so subjective.

So Kelsey, as somebody who struggled to recall the name of legend-tier artist Enki Bilal in that Richard Friend stream the other day, should I consider you to be from the Malinian school of art? The Malinian Murcan school of comic art?

The funny thing is, it wasn't Bilal I was trying to remember. It was François Schuiten. I just went with Bilal so I wasn't stammering for the next 20 minutes trying to remember who I was thinking of. I'm more of a Hugo Pratt guy these days.

(You live out there don't you, out there in the savage barbarian lands, where wild-eyed hicks chuckle over the bullet-riddled carcasses of uppity metal frog comics)

Or are you more honest and wise, more cosmopolitan and broad-/fair-minded, like our forum favourite @TheCosmicWarrior, who joins us in agreement that the Image stuff was crap and Eurocomics are just objectively better?

Subjective. A lot of Euro books are some of the most boring shit I've ever seen. All eye line shots, wide shots, all full body... But I won't deny that Serpieri is a God! I love Belgium comics a LOT! I'm a big fan of the Herge' Ligne Claire style and it's followers like Floc'h and the sub styles that came out of Ligne Claire, like Yves Chaland's atomic style. Of course Moebius and Hugo Pratt are some of my favs, but that's an easy one. What I wonder is how does the rest of Europe deal with the French kicking their collective ass in comics. HAHA! Even the best Spanish and Italian's go there to make comics.

And please don't go the Fraga route of trying to humanize Liefeld, saying stuff like, 'Oh he's my friend now, we've hugged and kissed and made up, even though he punched me in the face when I was a kid after saying that I stink.'

I don't need a whole redemptive biographical tale of Liefeld. This is just a simple, direct question, is Rob Liefeld a great artist? Is he 'one of the greats', as Malin purports him to be? Yes or no?

I said no.

Your answer WILL determine not only how highly I hold you in esteem, but it will also say a lot about your fate as an artist and career potential, in my opinion.

CHOOSE WELL! And if you like, explain your answer.

I mean you're quick to say fuck this, fuck that, but will you say fuck IMAGE? Fuck that bullshit?

Personally I think it's a downright cosmic incident of truly wizard hilarity, that the greatest thing Image Comics ever handed down to future comics artists, is BLANK PAPER! That's the stuff that is legendary and priceless, spoken of in hushed awe by comic artists to this day! Fraga even took payment for jobs with it, that amazing blank Image paper.

BLANK paper is that greatest and most precious thing Image Comics ever produced!!! LMMFAO!

HA! That's some funny shit! I didn't think about that. Image was great for a minute. It shook the cobwebs off and got people excited. I got interested in comics just before Image, so I'm an Image kid. I was primed for that at the time, with Liefeld commercials, talk shows and what not. I had never thought about the people that made comics before, so it was a real eye opener for a lot of us. Comics in the Japan and Europe can be enjoyed by adults, but your average beer swilling, flag waving, American thinks comics are for kids, if they think about them at all.

None of them should even have drawn a single thing! They should have held onto the blank paper, and then just sold it on to better artists, who could then actually use that paper to making something good! Aaaahahahaha, man it's funny.

I mean it's so funny, that I don't even understand how anyone could NOT find it funny. I guess maybe if they're an Image fanboi, like Malin, they might get a bit tetchy about it. But it's so funny! The BLANK paper is the most valuable legacy of the Image Revolution. The BLANK paper! Ha ha hah!

America should send all that leftover blank Image paper to Europe, to Enki Bilal. Then he might put pictures on it and send it back to America, and then America will finally get to see what actual genuine comic art looks like!

For comparison, Bilal:
View attachment 1990761
Liefeld:
View attachment 1990762
And Bilal again:
View attachment 1990766
And Liefeld again.
View attachment 1990767

Ok, the second example of Bilal was a better counter to Liefeld, but that first panel with the car... You show that to a kid and then the liefeld and tell me honestly what you think they would choose. That car shot by an Image guy would be exciting. Horribly drawn, but exciting. HAHA!

I think most of us know the deal. It's not great and most of it doesn't stand the test of time. BUT... allow me to do my own comparison.

This?

Or this?

The choice is fairly clear to me.

 

[jspit2.0]

Was I?

Last I was talking about Ernst's issues was mid January, a month and a half ago when new DM's surfaced. Kelsey obviously wanted to talk about Ernst because he started reeeeing about him out of the gate.

Other Newman, whatever.

If he wants to fling feces like a chimp someone should ask him to provide the DM's or it's just bitching.

Well, he wouldn't be the first.

We have a brand new Kiwi who claims to have the goods and is threatening to share. That's not boring unless it's all tease and no happy ending.

Kelsey's first post bringing up Ernst got 17 impressions so it would seem that old news or not there is some interest in what he has to bring to the table.

But he didn't drop them.

Nah all I had was the one drunk stream, from a video posted by Rumble Terrier on twitter some years back.

Pretty much. Unless somethings changed, I'm more interested in one of the eight or nine ongoing current CGtism blowouts.

To use an analogue, I feel about Doug Ernst leaving over some slapfight with Kelsey Shannon the same way I feel about Mistress Roulette announcing she's quitting Comicsgate 3 days before her first campaign (Hunting Alice) launches with DarkGift Comics in a now deleted tweet thread yesterday, all because various Comicsgate jackanapes couldn't resist making pegging jokes. Also it turns out that the enlightened neutrality espoused by DarkGift is in fact not advisable if anybody actually cares what where you stand or what you do (so, not DarkGift).

Thank you Monsieur Dongs, for redirecting to something ongoing.

https://archive.md/sNhNc

View attachment 1990149View attachment 1990150View attachment 1990153

I'm surpassed Preston still has a prostate with how long she takes to finish....

Oh, this was a real thing that was going to happen? Wow. I don't pay much attention to Dark Gift, as he's not very interesting to me (and I commend you, Mister Dongs, for your omnipresence and cataloguing of CG events). I do remember there being some rumblings shortly after the pegging stuff came out where some people wanted to have a talk with his ex, but I believe that was Liam/Oz. I'm shocked that this Roulette lady actually somehow got brought into the CG fold. Not entirely sure why she thought she could have both a career in Hollywood and an association with CG, though.

I will say -- and this will sound somewhat heartless and anti-creative -- that one of the unfortunate or rather double-sided results of ComicsGate as a whole has been the propagation of the idea that anyone and everyone could/should create a comic book. This results in a few things.

First, there's the people who clearly don't give two shits about comics but want to cash in on the CG audience while the money is still pouring in. In this category you've got people like Martina Markota, Daym Drops, and I'm assuming Mistress Roulette (though I know nothing about her; maybe she's the world's biggest Marvel fan or something). These come off as projects that are in no way driven by passion or love for comic books, which tends to frustrate me.

Second, you've got people that just wouldn't have any hope of a career in comics regardless of the state of the industry. Those who really have no talent or skill, but are carried by the good will and kindness of the community, mostly. I'd use Phil Diaz as the primary example here. I consider him to be the worst writer in CG overall. Magic Cop was awful, with its poor quality only compounded by Phil's brother Brandon's abysmal artwork. However, believing in second chances, I decided to back The Lost Pages. Lord almighty, what a mistake. I nearly went apoplectic trying to read that dreck. That being said, Phil and Brandon seem like nice dudes and they remain in CG's good graces by basically just being normal. I have no issues with them as individuals, but their work is some of the worst to come out of CG. I would also toss Adam Post in this category, as he brings nothing to the table and the College of the Dead books are complete dogshit, as I've noted in this thread before. I'm not sure how closely he involves himself with the scripting and art direction of those books, but it's clear that he really has no clue what he is doing, despite his tenured career in comics. Mandy Summers and Peter Gilmore are also among these ranks, as I know people here have realized. This category of creators is certainly the largest of those I'm outlining and contributes the most to the overwhelming crowding of the CG marketplace that we're seeing. Lots of failed or underperforming campaigns also come from people who lack talent like those mentioned here, but additionally lack the reach or CG clout that some of these people have. For those, there's basically no hope.

Third, you get the classic "competent artist who thinks he can also write." This one is especially painful, as there are some rather talented artists in CG that simply don't have the good sense to hire a proper writer to help with their book (or a goddamn editor, but that's a near-universal issue in CG). I attribute this partially to a sense of pride, but also to a burgeoning anti-writer sentiment that I've noticed from big guys like Jon Malin and Shane Davis. Your ability to draw does not make you a necessarily competent storyteller. Good examples here are Vinnie Tartamella and Preston Acevedo. Vinnie's first crowdfund offering, City of Venus, was a mainstay of my "top 5 worst CG books" until somewhat recently. It just has nothing going for it on the writing side of things. The art is fantastic, as Vinnie's usually is (though he's got a serious sameface problem), so it's a shame to see it wasted like that. Preston Acevedo's art is pretty solid as well, but Doc Salem was borderline unreadable. It may have one of the highest error counts I've seen in CG books, along with dialogue that doesn't flow at all. An absolute chore to read and an instant buyer's remorse if I've ever felt one. Despite what people want to believe, not anyone can write. It pains me to see artists encouraged to write their own books simply because they can draw. You'll see the JACK show crew try to urge Anna into creating a comic occasionally, but that girl can barely string together a coherent English sentence if you've seen her "write-ups" for those character fixes she sometimes does on twitter. But she'd hit $200k minimum if she actually did put out a book, bad as it may be.

Now, I said this is a double-sided result of ComicsGate because you also occasionally (read: extremely rarely) get someone exceptionally talented that may not have started creating comics if not for the CG scene and community. I think Charlie Snogans is a pretty good example here, as I recall him saying that he was mostly stuck doing logos and other graphic design and he feels really liberated in being able to draw comics. That guy was absolutely born to draw comics, so I'm glad that CG can allow people like him to actually flex their creativity. And of course, anyone is allowed to try their hand at crowdfunding and see what works. If they can make money, that's great. I'm not suggesting that any of these creators should stop trying to make money in comics. Just calling out poor quality where I find it. I'm not under the impression that CG is a meritocracy (I actually believe a meritocracy is impossible in a creative field to begin with), so of course poor books can find great success and excellent books can fail. We see it all the time. Anyways, I definitely strayed from my original point here with this rant, but I get frustrated by a lot of the books I receive and I've gotta air this shit somewhere. Thanks for reading my blog. Feel free to hit me with those autism tags.

It's cool, just...spoiler man. I do it all the time. Good rant, but made me go cross eyed for a bit.

In your opinion what are some of the best and worst books of CG? You mentioned that City of Venus was one of them and articulated why fairly well, I'm curious what others you've backed that you feel are subpar.

I enjoy hearing what other people say about Comicsgate books, especially ones I haven't backed. Kiwifarms affords you a place where you can be honest and candid about certain creators and books without getting labelled "anti-CG" or something else retarded just because you think Iron Sights was a complete and utter piece of shit.

Definitely. I also would appreciate some reviews from our CGwis. I actually have some CG books of my own.

 

[FROG]

Call that an autism post??
View attachment 1990760

@Kelsey, you old shagger, welcome! Not to immediately 'grill' you with sperg matters, but where do you stand on the Malinian Proposition that Rob Liefeld is a great artist?

I know @FROG has distanced himself from these controversial statements by Malin, though they both still jack furiously to Todd McFarlane, and I believe you do too, despite the hilarious reality-based fact that Todd himself carefully ignores Comicsgate while jacking furiously to the storytelling skills of hated anti-CG supervillain, Doug TenNapel. (Who is still the leading Doug in anti-CG currently, though with hot competition from your pal, Doug Ernst, and also The Man Who Shot Cyberfrog With An Actual Gun, Doug Garret)

So Kelsey, as somebody who struggled to recall the name of legend-tier artist Enki Bilal in that Richard Friend stream the other day, should I consider you to be from the Malinian school of art? The Malinian Murcan school of comic art?

(You live out there don't you, out there in the savage barbarian lands, where wild-eyed hicks chuckle over the bullet-riddled carcasses of uppity metal frog comics)

Or are you more honest and wise, more cosmopolitan and broad-/fair-minded, like our forum favourite @TheCosmicWarrior, who joins us in agreement that the Image stuff was crap and Eurocomics are just objectively better?

And please don't go the Fraga route of trying to humanize Liefeld, saying stuff like, 'Oh he's my friend now, we've hugged and kissed and made up, even though he punched me in the face when I was a kid after saying that I stink.'

I don't need a whole redemptive biographical tale of Liefeld. This is just a simple, direct question, is Rob Liefeld a great artist? Is he 'one of the greats', as Malin purports him to be? Yes or no?

Your answer WILL determine not only how highly I hold you in esteem, but it will also say a lot about your fate as an artist and career potential, in my opinion.

CHOOSE WELL! And if you like, explain your answer.

I mean you're quick to say fuck this, fuck that, but will you say fuck IMAGE? Fuck that bullshit?

Personally I think it's a downright cosmic incident of truly wizard hilarity, that the greatest thing Image Comics ever handed down to future comics artists, is BLANK PAPER! That's the stuff that is legendary and priceless, spoken of in hushed awe by comic artists to this day! Fraga even took payment for jobs with it, that amazing blank Image paper.

BLANK paper is that greatest and most precious thing Image Comics ever produced!!! LMMFAO!

None of them should even have drawn a single thing! They should have held onto the blank paper, and then just sold it on to better artists, who could then actually use that paper to making something good! Aaaahahahaha, man it's funny.

I mean it's so funny, that I don't even understand how anyone could NOT find it funny. I guess maybe if they're an Image fanboi, like Malin, they might get a bit tetchy about it. But it's so funny! The BLANK paper is the most valuable legacy of the Image Revolution. The BLANK paper! Ha ha hah!

America should send all that leftover blank Image paper to Europe, to Enki Bilal. Then he might put pictures on it and send it back to America, and then America will finally get to see what actual genuine comic art looks like!

For comparison, Bilal:
View attachment 1990761
Liefeld:
View attachment 1990762
And Bilal again:
View attachment 1990766
And Liefeld again.
View attachment 1990767

You're hallucinating this idea that I've "distanced myself" from Malin's love of Bob Liefeld. I just laugh about it. Liefeld's art is hilariously shit, but it's noisy and kids like it. Like punk music. It serves a different audience and purpose than Enki Bilal. Stop being a disingenuous putz.

Todd McFarlane is a hero of mine for the way he rose above the crabs in the bucket of late 80's and 90's comics. Bitter comics pros like Peter David and John Byrne tried especially hard to drag him down, but he kept his sense of humor and left them in the dust. That's the path.

DOUG ERNST DM DUMP.

Reading this thru, you see Doug actively working to get something going here. "I haven't gone after you," says Ernst, leaving me to wonder why that's even a thought, "But I can tell you why people (Ernst himself) are mad! Kelsey said 'fuck Doug!" An implied threat that Doug will join others in "going after me."

It's also made clear that Ernst is harassing Mitch with multiple texts and calls about Kelsey's behavior, making Kelsey Mitch's problem. Mitch is trying to ignore them. Ernst tells me, "You may be able to save them from themselves" and they should "walk away from this fight" but it's not really clear that the Breitweisers are acting in any way except defensively. Mitch isn't exactly the kind of guy who makes drama videos tattling on other ComicsGaters, so what is Ernst even talking about? All of this is threatening language from Ernst.

I'm bewildered by this. There's only one message cut, and it's Doug giving me his phone number to call him so he can complain about Cecil blocking him over whatever was going on with Kelsey.

Calling Mitch a "hyperbolic diva" during this struck me as projection, but who knows? I still don't quite know what was going on here.

 

[Yuusha-sama]

DOUG ERNST DM DUMP.

Reading this thru, you see Doug actively working to get something going here. "I haven't gone after you," says Ernst, leaving me to wonder why that's even a thought, "But I can tell you why people (Ernst himself) are mad! Kelsey said 'fuck Doug!"

I'm bewildered by this. There's only one message cut, and it's Doug giving me his phone number to call him so he can complain about Cecil blocking him over whatever was going on with Kelsey.

Since we talk about Ernst, let me tell you something.
Back in late January I was in Preston's discord in a voice call.
The people in there were Preston, Doug Ernst, Bean from PA, my alt and a nobody.
I was in there for 30 minutes and all they, mostly Preston and Ernst did was crying about you how evil, bad, and such a bully you are.

Basically they were like this.

Spoiler

 

[jspit2.0]

You're hallucinating this idea that I've "distanced myself" from Malin's love of Bob Liefeld. I just laugh about it. Liefeld's art is hilariously shit, but it's noisy and kids like it. Like punk music. It serves a different audience and purpose than Enki Bilal. Stop being a disingenuous putz.

All this Liefeld hate will make simple Zach cry guys.

Todd McFarlane is a hero of mine for the way he rose above the crabs in the bucket of late 80's and 90's comics. Bitter comics pros like Peter David and John Byrne tried especially hard to drag him down, but he kept his sense of humor and left them in the dust. That's the path.

I guess. I thought the question was about artwork. Still, definitely some bitterness from John Byrne at McFarlane's unearned good fortune.

DOUG ERNST DM DUMP.

Sheesh.

Reading this thru, you see Doug actively working to get something going here. "I haven't gone after you," says Ernst, leaving me to wonder why that's even a thought,

Probably wondering why your JACK show crew attacked him when he hasn't attacked you?

Perception at the time was you worked through proxies.

"But I can tell you why people (Ernst himself) are mad! Kelsey said 'fuck Doug!"

You got mad when someone called you Starlord and when Perch didn't drop everything to defend you on the spot.

Thin...Skin.

I'm bewildered by this. There's only one message cut, and it's Doug giving me his phone number to call him so he can complain about Cecil blocking him over whatever was going on with Kelsey.

Which makes Cecil look bad.

Calling Mitch a "hyperbolic diva" during this struck me as projection, but who knows? I still don't quite know what was going on here.

Let's see. Doug comes up to you when two (Malin and Cecil) of the big CG shot callers attack him, which he highlights during an active campaign. This sounds like refund concerns.

He then approaches you after Cecil blocks him. Remember the whole blocking thing was a big deal in CG? If someone blocks you you, then you presumably have beef?

Parsing through Doug's hyperbole, it appears he was catching crossfire over the Edwin/Mitch Wal-Mart conflict. Speaking of projection, you seem to imply Doug was using proxies?

You then proceed to threaten him if he joins in on the assault of the Breitweisers. That CG will fight for them. That's....so to recap, most of Allegiance is not CG. Some member, like Blake Northcott are BLM supporting mainstream figures. That's forgetting them stiffing backers for more than a year.

Doug in turn is being unfair. He wants you to pull everyone back on Tim Lim, who was a party on his campaign. Lim didn't really pull back on you at any point, so that's some hypocrisy?

This is the one that appears to be it. Looks like Tim Lim. "His team contacted him." Pot stirring.

Looks like you left out a pretty big missing piece. Also "someone tattled". Who would that be? War-campaign? Cecil? Jon?

 

[FROG]

Since we talk about Ernst, let me tell you something.
Back in January I was in Preston's discord in a voice call.
The people in there were Preston, Doug Ernst, Bean from PA, my alt and a nobody.
I was in there for 30 minutes and all they, mostly Preston and Ernst did was crying about you how evil, bad, and such a bully you are.
View attachment 1991425
Basically they were like this.

Spoiler

View attachment 1991432

Man, I have genuinely been nothing but kind, supportive and helpful to Doug Ernst. The situation with Kelsey baffled me at the time. But these people all poison each other with hatred and they all end up acting this way.

My personal feeling, my suspicion, is that this situation was either set up, or later exploited, to stir up a fight between me and Ernst for the benefit of someone else.

A month after this DM conversation, a character called "Shadow King" showed up in my livestream chats calling out Doug Ernst by name in the Kelsey "Walmart Conspiracy" in which I'd carefully only spoken about Edwin Boyette and George Alexopoulous. You can see me letting Doug know that I saw this, and that someone was trying to make more trouble. I told him it wasn't me and I was staying out of it.

Literally nobody noticed this except for a couple of retards here on KF, which makes me fairly sure it was them, or that it was Tim Lim himself, (who seems to have stirred up this mess to begin with.)

 

[TESTEFY-HD]

Since we talk about Ernst, let me tell you something.
Back in late January I was in Preston's discord in a voice call.
The people in there were Preston, Doug Ernst, Bean from PA, my alt and a nobody.
I was in there for 30 minutes and all they, mostly Preston and Ernst did was crying about you how evil, bad, and such a bully you are.
View attachment 1991425
Basically they were like this.

Spoiler

View attachment 1991432

I was in that discord for 2 weeks and heard almost the same exact thing you just said here.

Preston "PEGED" Poulter has no other goal than to cancel the #COMICSGATE movement. He doesn't realize we can literally change the name to something different over night and no one would care.

*note* BeanfromPA has left the PP discord because of his behavior since.

 

[FROG]

All this Liefeld hate will make simple Zach cry guys.

I guess. I thought the question was about artwork. Still, definitely some bitterness from John Byrne at McFarlane's unearned good fortune.


Sheesh.

Probably wondering why your JACK show crew attacked him when he hasn't attacked you?

Perception at the time was you worked through proxies.

You got mad when someone called you Starlord and when Perch didn't drop everything to defend you on the spot.

Thin...Skin.


Which makes Cecil look bad.



Let's see. Doug comes up to you when two (Malin and Cecil) of the big CG shot callers attack him, which he highlights during an active campaign. This sounds like refund concerns.

He then approaches you after Cecil blocks him. Remember the whole blocking thing was a big deal in CG? If someone blocks you you, then you presumably have beef?

Parsing through Doug's hyperbole, it appears he was catching crossfire over the Edwin/Mitch Wal-Mart conflict. Speaking of projection, you seem to imply Doug was using proxies?

You then proceed to threaten him if he joins in on the assault of the Breitweisers. That CG will fight for them. That's....so to recap, most of Allegiance is not CG. Some member, like Blake Northcott are BLM supporting mainstream figures. That's forgetting them stiffing backers for more than a year.

Doug in turn is being unfair. He wants you to pull everyone back on Tim Lim, who was a party on his campaign. Lim didn't really pull back on you at any point, so that's some hypocrisy?

This is the one that appears to be it. Looks like Tim Lim. "His team contacted him." Pot stirring.
View attachment 1991442

Looks like you left out a pretty big missing piece. Also "someone tattled". Who would that be? War-campaign? Cecil? Jon?


View attachment 1991448

Leaving out a piece wasn't intentional...looks like I just failed to click on it. I added two more screenshots to my post. That should be complete now. Edit: The two screenshots were doubles. Everything is there, but it might be slightly out of order.

Who tattled? That would have been Mitch. Mitch came to me after Doug was harassing him nonstop about Kelsey.

 

[jspit2.0]

Man, I have genuinely been nothing but kind, supportive and helpful to Doug Ernst.

Except Cecil and Jon weren't. Then you covered for them both. Then threatened Doug were he to actually fight back against Mitch's attack on him...

The situation with Kelsey baffled me at the time. But these people all poison each other with hatred and they all end up acting this way.

Lots of poison. WC plus Lim.

My personal feeling, my suspicion, is that this situation was either set up, or later exploited, to stir up a fight between me and Ernst for the benefit of someone else.

Tim Lim, though as I summarized above your far from innocuous. Ostracize you from others.

A month after this DM conversation, a character called "Shadow King" showed up in my livestream chats calling out Doug Ernst by name in the Kelsey "Walmart Conspiracy" in which I'd carefully only spoken about Edwin Boyette and George Alexopoulous. You can see me letter Doug know that I saw this, and that someone was trying to make more trouble. I told him it wasn't me and I was staying out of it.

Should have done that from the start and told Cecil to unblock Doug.

Literally nobody noticed this except for a couple of retards here on KF, which makes me fairly sure it was them.

Meh, could be.

Edit:

Leaving out a piece wasn't intentional...looks like I just failed to click on it. I added two more screenshots to my post. That should be complete now.

Who tattled? That would have been Mitch. Mitch came to me after Doug was harassing him nonstop about Kelsey.

Could be. I'd say you were getting screwed all around.

Sounds like Tim Lim took advantage of Kelsey and Cecil, who in turn were no doubt having CG people who resented Doug working with Tim Lim whispering in their ears, all stir the pot.

Doug already had some latent resentment toward you and then you stuck your nose into the Wal-Mart shit. That's when I see a turn in these messages.

 

[FROG]

Except Cecil and Jon weren't. Then you covered for them both. Then threatened Doug were he to actually fight back against Mitch's attack on him...


Lots of poison. WC plus Lim.


Tim Lim, though as I summarized above your far from innocuous. Ostracize you from others.


Should have done that from the start and told Cecil to unblock Doug.


Meh, could be.

Edit:



Could be. I'd say you were getting screwed all around.

Sounds like Tim Lim took advantage of Kelsey and Cecil, who in turn were no doubt having CG people who resented Doug working with Tim Lim whispering in their ears, all stir the pot.

Doug already had some latent resentment toward you and then you stuck your nose into the Wal-Mart shit. That's when I see a turn in these messages.

I don't see where Cecil or Jon threatened Ernst...or where Mitch attacked Ernst either.

I see that Kelsey said "fuck that guy" Cecil blocked Ernst, but I'm missing a gigantic part of this story.

 

[Pilule Noire]

This is hilarious! Thanks for asking. HAHA!

Short answer: No, Rob Liefeld is not a "great artist"



I don't look at that stuff often, so it hasn't gotten as stale for me as it might have for others. Neither Liefeld or McFarlane are particularly good draftsmen, but they bring the heat. In the type of comics they were doing, that's what mattered. The fun. If only they had a story to match. This is all so subjective.



The funny thing is, it wasn't Bilal I was trying to remember. It was François Schuiten. I just went with Bilal so I wasn't stammering for the next 20 minutes trying to remember who I was thinking of. I'm more of a Hugo Pratt guy these days.



Subjective. A lot of Euro books are some of the most boring shit I've ever seen. All eye line shots, wide shots, all full body... But I won't deny that Serpieri is a God! I love Belgium comics a LOT! I'm a big fan of the Herge' Ligne Claire style and it's followers like Floc'h and the sub styles that came out of Ligne Claire, like Yves Chaland's atomic style. Of course Moebius and Hugo Pratt are some of my favs, but that's an easy one. What I wonder is how does the rest of Europe deal with the French kicking their collective ass in comics. HAHA! Even the best Spanish and Italian's go there to make comics.



I said no.


HA! That's some funny shit! I didn't think about that. Image was great for a minute. It shook the cobwebs off and got people excited. I got interested in comics just before Image, so I'm an Image kid. I was primed for that at the time, with Liefeld commercials, talk shows and what not. I had never thought about the people that made comics before, so it was a real eye opener for a lot of us. Comics in the Japan and Europe can be enjoyed by adults, but you're average beer swilling, flag waving, American thinks comics are for kids, if they think about them at all.



Ok, the second example of Bilal was a better counter to Liefeld, but that first panel with the car... You show that to a kid and then the liefeld and tell me honestly what you think they would choose. That car shot by an Image guy would be exciting. Horribly drawn, but exciting. HAHA!

I think most of us know the deal. It's not great and most of it doesn't stand the test of time. BUT... allow me to do my own comparison.

This?
View attachment 1991322

Or this?
View attachment 1991323

The choice is fairly clear to me.

Solid response K-dawg! Much better than the one by a certain pointy-nosed fatso on here.

However I've got to call you out on your counter-example, it shoots your own argument in the foot somewhat. Blake and Mortimer is actually a fantastic example of the Ligne Claire style, as well as being genuinely for kids, unlike Image comics which were more for low-intelligence, horny virgin comic readers, and not really suitable for kids if you care about growing good kids.

And being from the 1940s, Blake and Mortimer is literally done in a retro style. Born 1946, living on to the present day, new stuff still being published at the age of 55. Will people be buying Cyber Force, or Frog or whatever, fifty years from now? Will artists be working to carry on those wonderful, important legacies? Do those properties have ANYWHERE near the story potential of Blake and Mortimer, to last fifty plus years? I'll leave it to you to ponder the answer.

Also, McFarlane hardly 'owned da writas' as @FROG wishes he did, he got absolutely brutally humiliated in a court of law by Neil Gaiman, for being a hack and a ripoff artist and a jerk, and had to pay Gaiman a ton of money, and then Gaiman sold Angela to Marvel, just to really put the boot into his smashed-up face, nice and hard. @TheCosmicWarrior this is why you can't get the Spawn stuff that you mentioned you wanted recently, it's because Gaiman took McFarlane to court for underpaying him and ripping him off, and won, and so Gaiman got control of the characters he created in Spawn, and then sold them to Marvel as a hefty kick in the balls to McFarlane, a lasting, legally-binding kick, right hard in McFarlane's balls. And the judge made fun of him too.

 

[jspit2.0]

I don't see where Cecil or Jon threatened Ernst...or where Mitch attacked Ernst either.

I see that Kelsey said "fuck that guy" Cecil blocked Ernst, but I'm missing a gigantic part of this story.

Doug has an open campaign. On a livestream, with Cecil and Jon, Kelsey shits on him. In front of CG. Then, Cecil blocks Doug.

That's business. Add in Lim making drama and that's all it would've taken to push him.

It's old, but this stuff, at least for me, I think it was Lim on Doug's side.

The remaining question is who pushed Kelsey, Jon and Cecil?

 

[Kelsey]

Fine. Fuck it. Let's get to the bottom of this.

This right here, is half truths. He told me to act professional and I replied that I'm not very professional. BUT I NEVER said that I would continue to say thing to undermine his projects. WTF?!

I said "Fuck Doug" as a joke because Cecil and Malin were goofing on them. If you listen to the whole segment of the video you'll hear me saying a lot of nice things about them. It was obviously a JOKE! Much like Doug Ernst.

Here's where I show he's full of shit.

I liked Doug and after saying "Fuck Doug" I felt bad and went to apologize to him. Example:


Then the D&Q things happened. I saw people having fun and went to join in for like 2 minutes. 2 minutes that we are still talking about today. I try to pop into as many CG streams as I can to like and boost their numbers, but I don't have a lot of time. I popped in and they were talking about Pussy. "I like Pussy" which I'm finding difficult to see how they connected that with hate speech towards George and trying to ruin Doug's campaign. No, they USED that as a weapon because of who I am and who I work with.

Edwin came to me the morning after I went on to the War Campaign show and said "I like Pussy," again having no idea who George Iiannoppolllis was or that anything was going on at all. I honestly didn't follow a lot of the trash being slung around and still don't pay all that much attention. So Edwin was upset, which I understood. He was confused how I can be friends with him and them jump on them with WC. I didn't know. I apologized.

Then Doug was in my DM's.
(Either I'm missing a screenshot, or I heard that he was talking about me and I went to talk with him about it first)


And that Ladies and Gentlemen is where I was told he started talking to E and Mitch. Mitch said that Doug was sending him emails saying exactly what Ethan was saying. They were collecting all my rude acts online and he would use his position at his newspaper to ruin him. I was not given any of these emails or DM's.

I STAYED OUT OF IT. Never mentioned him again and completely let it go.

I DON'T GIVE A SHIT about Doug or his lame ass comics. I hope he makes millions of dollars. What do I fucking care?! Jesus Christ he's a fucking hard on. Doug is small time. I'm a fucking 25 year veteran of the comic wars. He doesn't even rate on my fucking chart. He is a nat splatting on my windshield.

He picked this fight and if it's true what I was told, him using me to attack our investors and Mitch, then Doug is no better than the SJW trash he pretends to fight against.

Either that or he's just a very small person, scared of his own fucking shadow.

I don't care. I would really like it to go away so we can continue to make fun of Donal.

Thank you.

 

[A nameless trool]

I'm more of a Hugo Pratt guy these days.



Subjective. A lot of Euro books are some of the most boring shit I've ever seen. All eye line shots, wide shots, all full body... But I won't deny that Serpieri is a God! I love Belgium comics a LOT! I'm a big fan of the Herge' Ligne Claire style and it's followers like Floc'h and the sub styles that came out of Ligne Claire, like Yves Chaland's atomic style. Of course Moebius and Hugo Pratt are some of my favs, but that's an easy one. What I wonder is how does the rest of Europe deal with the French kicking their collective ass in comics. HAHA! Even the best Spanish and Italian's go there to make comics.



I said no.


HA! That's some funny shit! I didn't think about that. Image was great for a minute. It shook the cobwebs off and got people excited. I got interested in comics just before Image, so I'm an Image kid. I was primed for that at the time, with Liefeld commercials, talk shows and what not. I had never thought about the people that made comics before, so it was a real eye opener for a lot of us. Comics in the Japan and Europe can be enjoyed by adults, but you're average beer swilling, flag waving, American thinks comics are for kids, if they think about them at all.



Ok, the second example of Bilal was a better counter to Liefeld, but that first panel with the car... You show that to a kid and then the liefeld and tell me honestly what you think they would choose. That car shot by an Image guy would be exciting. Horribly drawn, but exciting. HAHA!

I think most of us know the deal. It's not great and most of it doesn't stand the test of time. BUT... allow me to do my own comparison.

This?
View attachment 1991322

Or this?
View attachment 1991323

The choice is fairly clear to me.

Damn, Hugo Pratt is great!

Liefeld could have been a great artist, he had the potential to actually work through his craft issues, but instead he became a bad businessman. Todd became a good one and had Cappulo do his style better. French artists can blow both out of the park, but they deliver something like 48 pages a year, so...

For all the hate we give @FROG, taking his time and doing a cyberfrog album a year * is optimal.

Itallians have a more "manga" approach.
Simple art, digest sizes and cinematic storytelling/writing.
Focusing on mainstream comics like action, western and horror works for them.
The writing is quite good. Tiziano Sclavi was a godlike writer and I have found myself reading some western comics like Tex and enjoying every panel of it, so this must say something for the quality.

And I do believe that many kids would rather read Tintin than Cyberforce. I know I was.

*If he was actually doing that